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I think we should put the articles up in stages. To start with, I would like to expand on the initial project specs as I have been getting some good feedback (thanks jdunlap), which has made me recognise that I have not done a really good job on my abstract/overview so far.
From what Marc has said, I seem to have put in about only 10% of the effort that he did  . But that could be down to the differences in the projects themselves.
Roger Allen
Sonork 100.10016
Were you different as a kid? Did you ever say "Ooohhh, shiny red" even once? - Paul Watson 11-February-2003
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Roger Allen wrote:
From what Marc has said, I seem to have put in about only 10% of the effort that he did
Well, if you exclude my rants, my jumping up and down, and switching over to itsyourturn.com[^] to see how my backgammon game against Taka is doing...
Roger Allen wrote:
I would like to expand on the initial project specs as I have been getting some good feedback (thanks jdunlap),
Same here, and my thanks to jdunlap too!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Roger Allen wrote:
From what Marc has said, I seem to have put in about only 10% of the effort that he did
Same here, I just wrote something about my ideas, and then expect to work on that, and write some real specs. when we get the teams up and running...
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Now you've all got me worried I'm not going to meet expectations!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Hmmm, I know you got me worried about the same...
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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All the better! Good motivation! 
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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I'm going to be working on the article layout pages for a couple of days so if you want to discuss anything about CPP here you can do so now.
BTW, I have heard from Chris M. and he said we should use the existing article system already in place since he has not been able to work on a project system. So there won't be any polling available except within message boards. Also, the only mailing list that can be setup is for anyone on the author list.
-- Anders Molin has offered up access to free bug tracking and he'll be setting that up for our 3 projects until his Defect Tracking system is finished. Thanks Anders!
-- As far as source control, we may have to do this offsite or like I mentioned before, maybe a source manager can handle it all. Any ideas?
-- When I get the page layouts finished I'll either post the articles myself with the PL as a co-author or I will send them to the PL for posting. Then you guys can go wild.
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I have heard from Chris M. and he said we should use the existing article system already in place since he has not been able to work on a project system. So there won't be any polling available except within message boards.
Ok, fair enough, I guess we can live with that
Jason Henderson wrote:
Also, the only mailing list that can be setup is for anyone on the author list.
IMHO this is not good. What you say is just that everyone on the author list get a mail notification for each new post.
We really really need a maillist where the team can discuss ideas without the messageboard.
I like the idea of using CP instead of another site, like sourceforge, but this one really suck!
I have my own mailserver and I guess I'm going to set up a maillist for my project, if the other PL's want one just let me know.
When all this started Chris wanted us to keep it within CP, and I'm 100% for that, but a maillist and a bugtracker is needed, and if that means we have to do those 2 things off CP, then we'll just do that.
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Anders Molin wrote:
IMHO this is not good.
I don't like it either.
Anders Molin wrote:
When all this started Chris wanted us to keep it within CP, and I'm 100% for that, but a maillist and a bugtracker is needed, and if that means we have to do those 2 things off CP, then we'll just do that.
Absolutely. I don't think he would mind in these situations. A mailinglist isn't really offsite since it goes through email and not the web. If you have a web interface I would suggest adding a CP link at least. I think he was more concerned about setting things up on sourceforge or having a yahoo group where everyone went off CP to discuss things.
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
If you have a web interface I would suggest adding a CP link at least.
I do have a webinterface, but it's not good, and I would prefer if people would just use their mailclient for it...
Jason Henderson wrote:
or having a yahoo group where everyone went off CP to discuss things.
A maillist also keeps people off CP
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Anders Molin wrote:
A maillist also keeps people off CP
But not on another website.
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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If it's okay with Chris I'll offer to set up maillists for the different teams...
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Anders Molin wrote:
We really really need a maillist where the team can discuss ideas without the messageboard.
What about a Yahoo group? (I have no idea how the thing works, BTW).
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What about a Yahoo group?
That might be an idea, I have never tried them
But the whole thing started when someone made a Yahoo group, and chris asked him not to use Yahoo groups, but to keep it on CP...
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I'm going to be working on the article layout pages for a couple of days
Thank goodness. I'll be able to get some billable hours in finally!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Setting up mailing lists now. Bugtracking isn't an option yet but I'm open for suggestions. We have the machines and the bandwidth and if there's a drop-in tracking system we can use then let me know.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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Ok, I've got abstracts from all PLs, but what are the next steps?
I'm currently waiting on a reply from Chris M. about how he wants us to proceed. Either with the current article format using 5 separate articles or with a new projects format we've talked about a little. If I don't hear from him soon, I'll go ahead and take the initiative.
So, should I create the articles for you (since I know what I have in mind) putting the project leaders on as authors with me, or should I let the leaders do it all (thme not knowing what I have in mind yet)?
Another thing that sort of bothers me about using the current article format is that you can't add or remove authors from a project. I was hoping to be able to add the team members to the project as they sign up, but we may have to do things differently.
-- I want a Main Page with general info and general comments.
-- I also want a Project management page where people can ask to join the team, and where team assignments would be posted.
-- A Source Management page would be used to maintain the source code, recent demo apps, latest screen shots, and the message area could be used for QA testing.
-- I think a Design page is necessary to display the design document and latest documentation for demo apps, and the message area can be used for design discussion.
-- Finally, a Diary page would be nice for basic commentary on the process and for open discussions.
It may not be a great idea to have every team member be an author, and just acknowledge them in the articles. A disgruntled person may attemt to sabotage things. But it may be nice for the PLs to let a designated "manager" take care of some of the pages.
I would appreciate any ideas you may have.
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
It may not be a great idea to have every team member be an author, and just acknowledge them in the articles
A definite wise choice. Just keeps the risk and organizing of information to a minimum. Nobody updating while someone else is updating.
--
"The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its rule by preying upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is concentrated in a few hands and the Republic destroyed."
-- Abraham Lincoln
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Jason Henderson wrote:
Ok, I've got abstracts from all PLs, but what are the next steps?
Get the teams formed, and get some members on each team so we can make some specs for the software
Jason Henderson wrote:
So, should I create the articles for you (since I know what I have in mind) putting the project leaders on as authors with me
That might be a good idea, yes. You can always ask chris to remove you, as author, if you want to.
Jason Henderson wrote:
I want a Main Page with general info and general comments.
Of course, it's a good idea 
Jason Henderson wrote:
It may not be a great idea to have every team member be an author, and just acknowledge them in the articles.
Good idea, I think it's a bad idea if everyone on the team is a member.....
It would be really good to have a maillist for the team. AFAIK chris is running an iMail mailserver, he should be able to set up a few lists on that.
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Jason Henderson wrote:
So, should I create the articles for you (since I know what I have in mind) putting the project leaders on as authors with me, or should I let the leaders do it all (thme not knowing what I have in mind yet)?
I would prefer to create the articles myself. I can always reformat them when it gets conveyed as to what you have in mind.
Jason Henderson wrote:
...you can't add or remove authors from a project. I was hoping to be able to add the team members to the project as they sign up, but we may have to do things differently
I would much rather prefer to have a managed article, namely, I don't want people to ad-hoc modify the article. The point of being project lead is to maintain some coherence to things. If everyone's editing the doc, chaos will result.
Jason Henderson wrote:
-- I want a Main Page with general info and general comments.
-- I also want a Project management page where people can ask to join the team, and where team assignments would be posted.
-- A Source Management page would be used to maintain the source code, recent demo apps, latest screen shots, and the message area could be used for QA testing.
-- I think a Design page is necessary to display the design document and latest documentation for demo apps, and the message area can be used for design discussion.
-- Finally, a Diary page would be nice for basic commentary on the process and for open discussions.
What you need is a web page, or the projects set up through SourceForge or some other system. Doing this with CP is possible, but not as convenient. Of course, I'll need to evaluate some of these other project hosting sites. The only one I've worked with is SourceForge.
Jason Henderson wrote:
just acknowledge them in the articles
Preferable, from my point of view.
Jason Henderson wrote:
But it may be nice for the PLs to let a designated "manager" take care of some of the pages.
Quite true. But that can be handled by giving the person the password for editing the articles, can it not?
In conclusion, I'd say, let's post the abstracts and see what interest develops. If some PL's want you to post them, fine, but I would much rather prefer to post my own articles at this point.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I would prefer to create the articles myself. I can always reformat them when it gets conveyed as to what you have in mind.
I'd like to have some standardization if possible, so if I don't post the articles for you, I'll give you a template to go by instead.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I would much rather prefer to have a managed article, namely, I don't want people to ad-hoc modify the article. The point of being project lead is to maintain some coherence to things. If everyone's editing the doc, chaos will result.
I agree, but if one person gets all the credit for the article, it might not be considered a code project project if you know what I mean.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Quite true. But that can be handled by giving the person the password for editing the articles, can it not?
If I try to modify one of your articles it doesn't give me the option to login with the article password. It looks like I have to be Marc Clifton to do it. You wouldn't want to giveout your password would you?
Marc Clifton wrote:
I'd say, let's post the abstracts and see what interest develops. If some PL's want you to post them, fine, but I would much rather prefer to post my own articles at this point.
But its not your own article Marc. True, you are the project lead, but you're not the whole project. This is a community thing so I want to do it the right way. If I do end up posting the articles, you will of course have full control afterward and my name could even be removed. So let's not split up just yet, not until I hear from Chris or decide to just do it my own way.
Can you see where I'm coming from with this? Why I would want some standardized layout?
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
But its not your own article Marc. True, you are the project lead, but you're not the whole project. This is a community thing so I want to do it the right way. If I do end up posting the articles, you will of course have full control afterward and my name could even be removed. So let's not split up just yet, not until I hear from Chris or decide to just do it my own way.
Can you see where I'm coming from with this? Why I would want some standardized layout?
Well, personally I think you're making too much of the standardization thing in this case. Part of the project should also be that each PL can explore a format that works well for his/her project. Standards are good, but personality and creativity are better, in some cases, and I think this is one of them.
The fact that my name is on the article as the author I think is appropriate as I'm the project lead. However, if that really bothers you, why not create a unique CP2-style user for each project and use that as the "author". The username and password could be restricted to the PL's or could be given out to select contributors/managers so that they can modify things themselves.
As far as I'm concerned, the abstract IS my own work at this point, and therefore should have my name as the author. Like you said, that could change later. If someone else writes the design document, I feel that they should be the author.
Oddly, I feel rather strongly about this. I don't feel it is appropriate for someone else's name to be on the:
Article content copyright X, 2003
everything else Copyright © CodeProject, 1999-2003.
copyright notice when I'm the one who has taken the time to do the surveys, researched the web, written the text and drawn the cute little pictures.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
why not create a unique CP2-style user for each project and use that as the "author". The username and password could be restricted to the PL's or could be given out to select contributors/managers so that they can modify things themselves.
Good idea. Only thing is, there can only be one user per email address. (Of course, you can get a hotmail account or something.)
Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, personally I think you're making too much of the standardization thing in this case. Part of the project should also be that each PL can explore a format that works well for his/her project. Standards are good, but personality and creativity are better, in some cases, and I think this is one of them.
Just try to keep with the standards as much as possible, and only deviate where you're absolutely sure it'll be beneficial. I certainly understand the need for creativity, though.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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What would you think of this scenario:
1) PLs setup their article for the abstract and take requests to join on that message board. Kind of like we did here.
2) When you feel you have enough members, setup a design article to discuss ideas more fully.
3) When the design is complete, setup your project mgmt page and give code assignments to the team.
4) Then setup the source mgmt project.
5) Then the diary.
Are there any changes you want to make? The only real standard I want to adhere to is the layout of the pages. We should have links to other pages at the top and basically the same info displayed for all projects.
We could eliminate the source mgmt page and integrate it with the project mgmt page. Also, we could integrate the diary with the design page or leave out the diary all together.
Whatever you do, I want the following things to appear somewhere in the project articles: your abstract, a design doc, milestones/goals for the project, team members, coding assignments, source code and screen shots/conceptual art when available.
Marc Clifton wrote:
The fact that my name is on the article as the author I think is appropriate as I'm the project lead. However, if that really bothers you, why not create a unique CP2-style user for each project and use that as the "author". The username and password could be restricted to the PL's or could be given out to select contributors/managers so that they can modify things themselves.
Your name being on the project doesn't bother me, but we should be working as a group on these things and I don't want anyone's ego getting in the way (especially mine). I just want to be fair to everyone AND give the project leaders as much flexibility as they need. If you feel like a CP2SF user would be convenient for you then set one up for the other project pages. The abstract page shoule be yours alone.
I feel like I'm rambling so I'll let you respond.
Jason Henderson latest CPP news
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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This sound more like it - creativity governed by standards.
I really liked your article guidelines, so I'm glad they're staying.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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