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A time to power up, a time to switch off
A time to edit, a time to compile
A time to cut, a time to paste
A time to debug, a time to release.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I is difficult for me to put into words how much I hate web development.
The HTML stack is the worst development stack in the history of mankind.
That said, I'm reading up on ASP.NET MVC for the very first time.
I've never applied this type of architecture to web pages before and I'm finding it very interesting. Just the fact that it claims to embrace the stateless nature of the web seems to be a breath of fresh air - as if maybe I'll no longer be fighting that battle.
So am I in the honeymoon phase here or is MVC really that much of an improvement?
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I take it you don't mind the 300+ files created when you start a new project?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Ooh, thanks 
Interestingly enough when I started looking at MVC5 I thought - "I recognise that, it's pretty much how I have designed the architecture for the ERP system I wrote in my current business".
It does seem to be a way of guiding people into good software engineering/architecture without them having to learn the hard way as I did.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: I recognise that, it's pretty much how I have designed the architecture for the ERP system
If you are already using that architecture then ASP.NET MVC will be very easy and exactly what you expected. The challenge of starting out is :
there are so many technologies (JavaScript, Bootstrap, Razor engine and more) mixed together it is difficult to get a good handle on what is what.
I've really attempted to do that with my articles. Hope they help.
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I felt the same way being a C++ / MFC / WinForms developer who then moved to C# winforms for a long time.
I then migrated to ASP.NET (classic not MVC) and though it did offer some nice OOP layer over the top of ASP badness it wasn't great. (PageController was limited).
Now, MVC is very very good and as soon as you learn the various layers (Views via Razor Engine, Controller power and true separation) you will love it.
Insert Gratuitous Self-Promotion Here
I've written a couple of very beginning articles (at CP) on MVC via Visual Studio just last month.
Maybe you'll enjoy them:
ASP.NET MVC : Build Your Custom Blog Engine (CMS) - Part 1 of 2(Own ASP.NET MVC)[^]
Good luck.
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What gets me down is the amount of Javascript that needs to be written. Maybe it will get better with experience, but developing a web app takes me much longer than a Windows WPF app.
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I would suggest to try using some framework like AngularJS to aid you. It reduces the bunch of HTML /JS you need to write and it works well with MVC..
Thanks,
Milind
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I used it on my site and it is a breathe of fresh air, but it definitely is a new way of doing things.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta tomorrow (noun): a mystical land where 99% of all human productivity, motivation and achievement is stored.
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I have developed many, many sites using WebForms. And a few using MVC. They're just tools. Pick the one you're comfortable with and ignore all the hype.
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R. Giskard Reventlov wrote: They're just tools. Pick the one you're comfortable with and ignore all the hype.
I agree with you 100%.
There is sooooooooo much hype with all this stuff you can barely see through the fog to get to the learning / using part. AngularJS, Bootstrap, Backbone, Razor, YAJL (YetAnotherJavaScript Library), CSS, ad infinitum.
Use the one that let's you build fast and extend easily.
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raddevus wrote: ad infinitum
Can you provide a link to this new library? 
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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MVC is great. ASP.NET MVC is bloated, but still pretty cool.
At the end of the day it's still web and requires HTML, CSS, and JavaScript which pretty much sucks.
HTML and CSS just does not work (in all browsers).
I'm starting to get used to JavaScript (I might even start to like it a bit).
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Sander Rossel wrote: CSS just does not work (in all browsers)
agree. all kinds of annoying things you have to tweak.
Bootstrap?
Have you tried using the Bootstrap stuff?
Most of it is quite nice.
Some stuff is still annoying but a lot of it just works and it feels like having old winforms controls (that you didn't have to draw yourself) available to you.
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I've tried Bootstrap once, very nice indeed.
Unfortunately we're not using it on my current project at work.
I'm regularly praising WinForms at work!
I started out in WinForms at another company. Used it for four years or so.
My current company used to use Delphi for client applications.
Nowadays we only do web.
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MehGerbil wrote: So am I in the honeymoon phase here or is MVC really that much of an improvement?
Definitely honeymoon. Me, I took one look at her and decided immediately that I didn't want to go through a painful divorce later on.
That said, you make your choice, love the great things and learn to live with the not so great things. 
Marc
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I've used it for a few years now (well, prior versions of it). Had a good bit of fun while doing it, but then I moved on to not only embracing the stateless nature of the web but embracing the document centric nature of the web.
Now my servers only do 3 things: 1 - serve data, 2 - provide business services, and 3 - serve static documents. I don't bother building the UI on servers anymore, I leave the UI where it belongs: on the client.
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Vark111 wrote: my servers only do 3 things: 1 - serve data, 2 - provide business services, and 3 - serve static documents.
That's a great summary of the way things should be.
Great comment.
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I'm shocked, shocked I say at how unstable IE 11 is on Windows 10.
In the history of my use of the internet I've never had a more unstable browsing experience.
My IE 11 locks up, randomly shuts down, chokes, pukes, vomits and stumbles its way through web pages in slow motion. It does this on both of my machines even after a fresh build. It is absolutely ridiculous.
BTW, I don't blame IE 11 completely - I don't know who has been polluting every single web page with tons of ads but it is to the point where on most news sites it is impossible to read an article with the way stuff skips around as new elements are loaded. Usually one of them fails, locking up the page, so I have to reload the page and scroll down a bit before the inevitable freeze.
Also, I've noticed videos are appearing with no shut off button or the button appears and doesn't work. People who create those things should be tortured to death - it is to the point where I don't visit news sites anymore. I'll just read a book.
Thanks for driving me off the internet.
Die in a fire.
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Or you could just use a proper browser like everybody else! Just saying.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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It is hard for me to believe that IE11 could be this bad.
How can this be the worst browsing experience I've had - ever?
So part of me thinks it has to do with web pages that are trying to do too much.
I don't have issues with sites like Code Project, you know, where the ads don't completely take over the entire site.
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I've given up on Microsoft's browsers on computers. Haven't really used one unless it's to download another. Saying that, I must also point out, that it works very well on windows mobile.
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