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Nobody expects ... oh, wait, wrong sketch. Anybody point me to Room 378?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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My son got his first programming job before he had his hands on his associates degree. The pay was just sub $30k. He started looking after he had a year at that shop and it took a months, but then he got double and then some what he was making at his first job. The big problem was that everyone wanted complicated skill combinations that were very odd to say the least. One shop wanted Objective-C but admitted they would have to rewrite the project in Swift just as soon as they got the project deployed.
My favorite job ad ever required 5+ years experience with Visual Studio 2010 in 2010.
BTW he had several agents getting him interviews, but the CIO of his new company spotted him on LinkedIn.
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Make sure you social media footprint telling your story. Tap into self branding techniques to drive positive interactions.
Manager will say a stream of consciousness to the recruiter. Who puts all the words onto a job description. Manager is looking for a hard hitter, not an encyclopedia.
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Dikshitar V. wrote: Manager is looking for a hard hitter, not an encyclopedia.
In the case you described, manager must be looking for someone from marketing.
I'd rather see a dev work on source-code than on updating FB and LinkedIn connections. Knowing what you want is indeed a difficult task. Knowing what you need is even harder.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Dikshitar V. wrote: Make sure you social media footprint telling your story. Tap into self branding techniques to drive positive interactions.
Sounds like something out of Dilbert. Are you a PHB?Dikshitar V. wrote: Manager will say a stream of consciousness to the recruiter.
Oh, such irony.Dikshitar V. wrote: Manager is looking for a hard hitter, not an encyclopedia.
It's not Fight Club. Why this talk about hitting?
This space for rent
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See, this Pete's funny- one liners and zingers guy. This translates to quick thinker.
To self branding effectively OP, don't "roll the dice", take an honest look at strengths and translate it to the business paradigm. Set proper expectations to wow them in the interview.
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Now, it is probably not too hard, especially here in the U.S. Back between 2000 to 2004 it was hard for me being junior level to get a decent job. The .Com bubble burst, the 9/11 attacks occurred, and the U.S. was in a recessionary period. I imagine between 2008 and 2011 it was the same story. So good for him getting his first job.
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Software development is project work, like building a skyscraper. During a recession, nobody is starting new projects. If you're standing up when the music stops, you may wait out the recession unemployed. Doesn't matter how good you are if no one is hiring.
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I remember a one job ad 'Young Graduate, 5 year experience' So at the time I was a fresh graduate with no experience. The agent phoned me we went through everything from degree to my dental records and was then asked if I had the '5 Years Experience'. I did not and was accused of wasting time. In other words the client wanted 5 years experience but didn't want to pay for it...
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I have 35 years of experience and find it difficult to get a job, but mostly because I'm much less inclined to suffer the "testing phase" of the interview process. IMHO, problems don't arise because someone doesn't know the answer - they arise because someone doesn't know how/where to FIND the answer and move on.
I also don't appreciate being told that I have to be willing to socialize with my co-workers. I actually got laid off once for that - it was viewed as not being a "team player". The main problem is that I have a very narrow and specific list of interests, and none of them are an interest in being interested in other people's interests unless they closely align with mine.
I was also laid off once because I refused to work overtime for the sake of working overtime. My view is that if my work is behind, or if someone specifically asks me for help, I'll put in the extra hours. I'm 60 years old with a wife and a life, and long ago learned that loyalty to the company isn't necessarily (and more often than not, is most definitely not) reciprocated.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Best posting I've read for a month. It might as well have been me talking (or me +5 years, you old fogey).
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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One of the few pleasures at work is being the office grump, pester me and I'm likely to growl at them. I often hear some newbie ask who the old bloke is, they usually get a reply like "just give him work and leave him alone".
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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problems don't arise because someone doesn't know the answer -
Usually it's because someone doesn't know they don't know the answer.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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I learnt this same thing when I was a "company man". My first 'real' job. It was a production environment, and I ended up becoming a manager. I thought this was it, and I would always work there.
I got passed for promotion a couple of times because I was very valuable where I was at. They decided that, after finding out I was not happy about it, they would have me train my replacement, and then demote me. That's not intuition, they actually said that specifically. After training this dude, I would work under him in that area so that I would be available if problems arose. So I clocked out at lunch and just never went back.
Don't give yourself to a company. They are not going to take care of you, and they simply don't care when it comes down to it. I've done well after I learned that lesson.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I also don't appreciate being told that I have to be willing to socialize with my co-workers. I actually got laid off once for that - it was viewed as not being a "team player".
How can I get that to happen?
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I was also laid off once because I refused to work overtime for the sake of working overtime. My view is that if my work is behind, or if someone specifically asks me for help, I'll put in the extra hours.
Agree. I'm tired of hearing people brag about how many hours they put in. They're doing it wrong then, either in setting realistic expectations, or knowing their pace.
On more than one occasion, I've made it abundantly clear: the company gets 40-ish hours of my time per week. That's it, and that's all (with some exceptions as John notes above).
To answer the OP's original post, it's not difficult at all, once you've gotten over the hump of finding that first one and gaining some experience (assuming some decent level of ability of course).
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Right there with you. I am 66 with 38 years experience. I have recently started doing contract work and am on my second contract with a big company. The first was a nightmare. The second has been wonderful. It all depends on the people that you work with and for. Most applicants are so anxious to get hired, they forget that they are there to interview is a two way street.
In the future (yes I expect to drop dead over my keyboard, I actually like what I do!) I expect to interview the manager and people I will be working with.
Finding a job is not difficult. Finding a GOOD job, one you like, and one you are adequately compensated for, is Hard.
A giraffe is a horse designed by a committee and developed in an Agile environment...
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I'm not 60 yet, but I have the same ego setting long ago. If one has to constantly putting over time, it means that management/marketing over promise. As I always said, put marketing, manager and developer in a room; the programmer always got a bloody nose.
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I'm 58, 35 years programming experience. I'm between jobs. I'm not sure I'll ever work again.
Oh, I can get a job, all right. I can get a job if I want to work for half my previous salary. I can get a job if I want a 60-hour-a-week death march. I can get a job for a lowball salary and a promise of options that may never actually materialize, and I also have to be a contractor for the first six months before my first year of options and my health care begins (at which point they lay me off). I've actually had each of these jobs in the last five years. A combination of shame and legal agreements forbids me saying the names of these companies.
I'm not a curmudgeon, like some of the responders to this thread. At least I don't think I am. But with my years of experience, I can see bad management decisions coming ten miles off. I try not to grimace in meetings. Seeing the future is a curse. You can't tell anyone because they won't believe you. They think they're so smart, and they're in charge goddammit. And you can't say "I told you so" either, because the perpetrators leave before the turds hit the turbine, or they're the founder.
So, gentle readers, how do you find a job that won't be a disappointment, when you know what you're doing?
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Two important criteria:
What you know.
Who you know.
Not necessarily in that order.
Not just for programming, either.
In parallel to one of your observations, I've concluded that most development shops want someone under 25 with 30 years experience.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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They also want you to do the job as a volunteer, and make weekly monetary donations.
modified 11-Apr-16 23:38pm.
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You at the right place at the right moment 
Truly, there are things which are destined.... It just happens ..
Thanks,
Milind
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I see that 'specific skill' trap a lot. Companies think they are hiring for a specific programming language or library set. What they really should be looking for is attitude and IQ. A good programmer can quickly learn any language or skill.
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I've been through dozens of job interviews, but it seems the easier the interview goes, the more likely I got an offer. I've job offer by just visiting. There are some company that has very rigor interview session for very simple project.
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I would say, the more senior and older you become the harder it is to find a new job. Location can be key too, in the UK. Technical tests are a subjective nightmare. I'm fairly sure, after god knows how many interviews, a decision has been made on you, in the foyer, before you've even answered the first question. You've just got to keep plugging away at it and don't ever let the interview process undermine your confidence as developer.
On that note, confidence in your own skills, knowledge and experience is a crucial factor in being a successful developer.
Also note that every job will fundamentally change in some way within the first six months. For example, in my current role, my original line manager retired within two months.
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