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Nah, they're minimally NSFW but I prefer the various QUOTH THE SERVER "404"[^] variants.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on oneβs own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Hi everyone
And thanks in advance! I'm after advice from people who work in the real world as developers in programming and people who hire developers!!
I'm 28, from Dudley UK and want a career change! After looking into programming/coding online as I've always been into and around computers all my life I've decided this is the path I want to follow!
I've been to see all the local colleges and universities and I have a few options but I'm not sure on which way to go! I'm not scared of hard work in the slightest and I don't expect this to be easy but I don't want to waste my time and money on going down the wrong path!
I'm currently half way through " learn python the hard way" and I must say I'm really getting into it! I already have my level 2 in IT from school ( many years ago) I'm 4 weeks into a 15 week programming concepts course at a local college this will give me a part level 3 qualification!
I finish this in may I'm gonna do the Harvard CS50 next in may as I've herd it's really good and it's free!
Now I'm faced with some choices I either do my HNC and HND in computing and systems development then try to gain a job from there and consider topping it up to a degree afterwards time expectancy 4 - 6 years while trying to teach myself more coding at home! Building a git hub profile and doing as much as I can!
I did go to talk to one of the senior lectures at Wolverhampton uni and she told me that someone in my position may not want to consider a part time degree as they take so long and what employers want now will change in 6 years time! She advised me to go look into some professional courses and build my own portfolio to take to employers and she knew people in the industry without degrees that have done very well this way.
By pro courses i can only think she means coding boot camps! While they seem very good and promise job ready in 12 weeks to 6 months depending on how long you do the course over! I just don't wanna throw Β£4000 down the drain on something that doesn't hold any value to a potential employer. The reviews I've read seem to be really good or really bad! It would be great to hear from someone who has any experience with these!
Like I said before I'm not scared of hard work and long days I spend most of my spare time now trying to teach my self and it's going well but I feel that I'm coming to a point and not knowing which way to go!!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Il be out all day to il probably check back later on if anyone reply's!!
Thanks ππ
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Since you are relatively young if you do start studying I really recommend trying to get an internship or some part time while you study. Not only will that help you get a job but also help you tremendously. It can expose you to different parts of the business and help you narrow down what sort of work you wish to do as well as learn quicker.
My take on things is that on hands experience is what teaches you the quickest. As long as you got some decent knowledge of programming and general principles getting some real world problems and learning while solving them will help you learn quickly. I guess this is what boot camps try to solve. Would love to try one just to see if that holds true. 
I think this route works for web development or building desktop applications but if you are looking for a job that really requires the knowledge of a degree in computer science studying for one is probably the right thing.
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Member 11683251 wrote: getting some real world problems and learning while solving them
That is exactly what matters most.
Having a suitcase full of certificates is useless if you can't acheive that. Anyway there will be 10 million Chinese kids half your age with two suitcases full of shiny new certs anyway, it's a pissing contest you'll never win.
As a new entrant to the field just take a few courses that:
(1) matter to the path you want to take, plus,
(2) one or two that are 'relevant' - that means they have 'development' and 'windows 10' in the title ('microsoft' in the title extra bonus). Here look for on-line or if classroom 1 day or less courses that fit that spec - any longer is just bullshit.
Sin tack
the any key okay
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Are you currently working or are you in full-time education? If you are currently working, is there any chance that you could be given some relevant development work? Start with something relatively small, like a web site or something, and work upwards from that.
If you're not currently working, then a college course would be a good idea. An HND / HNC for example. Check out what other courses your local college offers and see which ones fit your needs.
I've heard good things about the Harvard CS50 as I know someone who is doing it, and rates it very highly.
What's important is that you have some basic knowledge that you can build on, and if you can couple this with some work based experience, even better.
Best of luck which ever way you choose
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare
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I am currently working but my full time job is a world away from software development I'm a service engineer working in horticulture!
The HNC/HND part time then possible degree route is what I think I may do it's just trying to get some real world experience in between as at the moment I can't afford to quit my job as I have a family to support !!
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Don't do it. It's hell. Really. Believe me. Why do you think I keep buying lottery tickets?
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Service engineer working in horticulture... is that code for clearing weeds from the cannabis crop? 
Not sure of the details of your work, but lets say there are several "locations" you maintain.
Does the company you work for have any type of software to track which "locations" have been serviced?
Even if the company already has this tool, I suggest writing a Django app (as you are already learning Python) which you could use to track your servicing activities.
Work in phases.
First track where you have been, then expand the tool to include predictive behavior (i.e. have not been to location "X" in 5 weeks, time for preventative maintenance).
You could even have the app create reports on which "locations" are the most problematic - if you add info about what machinery / tools the sites have, you could do comparisons on problematic vs. tool type, etc.
As you already have knowledge of the horticulture service industry, you are in a great position to create a software tool like this - don't be discouraged if there already is an app that does this...
New apps (though sometimes not better) are always supplanting older ones. The trick is to make yours better.
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The main problem you will face is trying to get a job with a qualification but without experience. Many employers nowadays expect both, though how they expect you to gain the experience in the first place is something they never explain. Have a look round local employers and (dare I mention) recruitment agencies, to try and get an idea of what the current market is looking for. And, of course, that will all have changed by the time you get your qualification.
Don't believe the promises of the schools that advertise the aforementioned programming courses. They cannot guarantee you a job any more than they can guarantee that the sun will shine tomorrow (especially in Dudley  ). You can probably learn just as quickly using any of the online free tutorials if you have a reasonable ability in programming.
But good luck anyway.
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First piece of advice: take a good look at the industry and take note of the technologies/languages/frameworks that are 1) popular, 2) used widely in the industry, 3) pay a decent salary, and 4) available within a commutable distance.
Big companies tend to need a degree (or relevant experience) but smaller companies are always looking for people. .NET and Java are very popular and we're bringing in developers from all over the world to fill vacancies. Neither technologies are going away any time soon either.
Niche (and usually more interesting stuff) is fun, but you'll find yourself wondering if you're going to have a job next week all the time. The pay can either be astronomical (rarely) or bottom of the barrel.
Whatever you get into keep your skills current. Nobody codes perfectly, there's always room to learn and improve.
I got my first software job (without a degree) by going to an interview with reams of my own printed out code and demos of what I could do. Don't be afraid to take a risk
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Sounds like good advice thank you!!
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<GrumpyOldGrammarNazi>
First piece of advice: don't end every sentence with an explanation point (!). It makes you sound manic.
</GrumpyOldGrammarNazi>
Software Zen: delete this;
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Point taken π And thanks
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Some food for thought:
Many of the best developers around (even on CP) - perhaps the best - never took a course in programming. It's just something they did and somehow managed to make a living doing it.
Getting in - that first IT job - is the tough one. As I usually put it: 25yrs old with 30yrs experience. That being said, in that job, you'll need to carve out just what is it you do.
Myself? I'll freely admit they could get a better coder than I with far more knowledge in all the various allied technologies. Why me? Because I can solve problems faster and better than any of them. And intuition. Those are things you really can't learn. You may have a different attribute to present. What can you bring to the table? You may not know, yet. A small productive group needs multiple skills.
In school or out, I presume your coding already because you can't help but do it. Discover what you're good at. Discover what you like to do. If you're really lucky, you can bet paid for doing them both.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Thanks! That sounds ideal and I think if I were younger it may be a great way to go, not that I'm old but I'm at an age where I think I may get only one chance to retrain to this scale. Which is why I feel I need some actual qualifications + a decent portfolio under me to stand a good chance of getting a starting point!
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If I hadent asked I would be loosing. My asking is me carving out possible paths for me to follow. Hence pushing forward and not loosing! But thanks for the input anyway
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In programming, the only way to go is recursive.
.evisrucer si og ot yaw ylno eht ,gnimmargorp nI
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I recommend getting a grasp on the industry first by doing an entry level job.
At 28 your odds seem better if you start by imitating people with more experience.
Going from "writing code" to "creating something with monetary value" requires some understanding of how to deliver work in general. You can build a portfolio, but chances are high it's going to be too narrow in scope to be of any use.
As an example: good portfolio's (in my professional opinion) show that you can tackle complex problems and solve them in a maintainable way. In practical terms, this means doing something that covers multiple languages (let's say python and C#), independently figure out who's prior work to combine (with proper references / attention to licenses!) to produce "a stable result" of some kind. And you would need to generate some kind of validation that shows your approach is valid / predictable. Full test coverage is probably the easiest way to go about that.
The catch is, that none of this is particularly easy without a frame of context on how you should present all of this. If you botch up the presentation, most people (= management) will simply fail to understand what you did, rendering the entire thing moot.
So.. this leaves you with trying to get a entry level job, so you can start figuring out how to report work in an a manner both management and fellow developers will understand. After about 3-5 years doing that, you can probably build a decent portfolio and get a better job.
In my experiences, the industry is still very much build around "trail and error".
A lot of people seem clueless. Some are full of sh*t. Others visit CodeProject and are alright I guess.
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Thanks sounds sensible to be fair! I didn't ever expect to walk into a senior developers job just because I'm older. Starting from the ground up was always where I expected to be but I think my aim was to try and gain a substantial qualification first giving me enough knowledge to gain a better paid entry level job so I didn't have to take as much of a pay drop! There are quite a few training jobs local but they are apprentiships less than minimum wage and as much as I would love to jack my job and go for it I can't afford to take that pay drop! Which is why I wanted to try and do my HNC HND first then possibly my degree if time/situation allows! Do you think I would be better off doing this than going straight into an entry job with no quals? A lot of the better paid entry jobs require a BS in Computer Science and the better paid jobs at big company's. Does the industry view experience better than quals? Or is it all down to the company?
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Saw this a bit late, but I still wanted to follow up:
Experience vs qualification requirements are different for different companies. (ikr :P)
Smaller companies will often hire you without qualifications if you look capable and present yourself at the right moment.
The dangers with getting a degree first, is that you're already 28, which means you will still need to get an entry level job (albeit with slightly higher pay) later on, when you're 30+. That's not an ideal situation for a few reasons: you're not gaining any experience in the meantime, you're not generating cash, and your chances of getting hired stay about the same. (more qualified on paper but also older)
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As an employer and programmer with 30+ years experience, I think it is worth considering the following (from my perspective):
1) On the whole, employers want a balance of people who are very productive with specific technologies (which requires time and experience) and those who have natural programming skills, that is a mix of being able to think logically, some degree of numerate competency and able to solve new problems; (you either have these skills or don't).
2) Today, the software development landscape is rapidly evolving with new technologies / approaches appearing continuously. Hence, it is wise to place for a career of on-going professional development and being willing to adapt and take on new things. This is a personality trait, that is possible for some to develop if they do not have it.
3) There are some common threads and generic aspects of best practice (e.g. software life cycle, revision control concepts, issue management, testing strategies, release engineering etc. which you will need to be a good programmer.
Taking the above together, I would suggest aiming to fine a junior role / internship where you can gain experience of 3 from a mentor and that gives you the opportunity to use current in-fashion programming technologies. Assuming you have the natural programming skills from 1, this will allow you to become productive in something employers will find valuable. Then as your move one, seek opportunities that provide opportunity for development as in point 2, or better still in the role you are in at any time, track developments and where appropriate evolve what you do to use them.
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Not sure what it's like in the UK but in the US it's difficult to get a good developer job without a degree. Those ads that say degree or 5 years? Don't believe it, they aren't treated the same. 5 years experience means any technical degree is okay, not just a CS degree, but when it comes to interviews the ones without degrees go to the bottom. Yes, still a chance but only if the top of the pile are too expensive or fail the interview.
As someone who's been on both sides of the interview table I do agree with most of the points above. Experience counts, especially in senior positions. Junior positions it's less of a factor, so the only tangible data to go on is...degree and subjects in school. Bootcamps? Anyone who's been a programmer for some time knows you can't really learn to be a commercial developer in 12 weeks. Maybe, maybe an entry level position where the company expects to train for the job. Expect pay grade to be competitive with janitorial services.
When you get to positions that ask for 10+ years experience degrees don't count for much as long as you have one in a technical field, unless it's a Ph.D. Problem with Ph.Ds is too much focus on academics, not enough on how to build code in an economical and profitable way. Good for a research position, not so much for engineering the deliverables.
There are other aspects to development work besides coding. What makes a prospect stand out are the communications skills. Can you explain your work in a way others understand? You'll be on a team; they have to know what you are doing. Some day there will be "the next guy" working on your code, will they be able to follow your logic? Do you even comment your code? If you say "the code is self documenting" in an interview you might as well stand up and leave. Managers who have to worry about continuity and maintenance know first-hand that particular cliche is a myth. Consider some classes on writing, an articulate and well-written report or manual will demonstrate you are more than just a code monkey.
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I have been doing development for 20+ years and I have seen people or all sorts.
The first question you really need to ask yourself before you go any further is "Do you want to be a professional student?". We are not developers we are students! I am also in the US so the atmosphere here may not be the same as in the UK (so there is the gain of salt).
I would recommend at least a two degree. This is only to get by the people who think you have to have a degree to program. To that end do you have a partner that can support your family while you do your education full time. I worked full time while I got mine and it would have a lot easier if I had not.
After you learn one language the others become easier and easier to learn. It is the fundamentals of CS and the soft skills that are important.
I hope this 2 cents helps
Buckrogerz
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