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Eddy Vluggen wrote: es, but that is not something new; that could happen to everything you call "property
Yes but it someone steals my credit card I am out, at most 50$, and for most credit cards not even that. And even the use might allow the police to find the thieves.
If they steal the flash drive with 1 million in bitcoins or steal it from the online holder it is gone unless the police can recover it. And spending it will not expose the thieves.
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jschell wrote: Yes but it someone steals my credit card I am out, at most 50$, and for most credit cards not even that. And even the use might allow the police to find the thieves.
Unfair comparison; that's not money, that's someone else guaranteeing your payment 
jschell wrote: If they steal the flash drive with 1 million in bitcoins or steal it from the online holder it is gone unless the police can recover it. And spending it will not expose the thieves.
That's more true for gold than for BC. Remember that gold does not have a public ledger known as a "blockchain".
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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No, because the point of a central bank is to control the money supply with the intent of keeping the value stable. They don't always succeed, but have done a remarkably better job than commodity-backed currencies. (Right now Bitcoin is a speculative commodity, not a currency, despite claiming a similar name.)
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Yes - but then so is gold (upon which most world currencies are based) a speculative commodity.
One thing this cryptocurrency phenomenon may do is finally get it through to people that money is not - and has not been for centuries - in any way related to goods and services. Its value is nothing more than what the markets decide it to be, and there at all sorts sf factors that determine that, both social and political.
(Yeah yeah - Soapbox is thataway ---> )
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The volatility of gold makes it a problem for a growing economy. Ironically, most countries whose currency "backed" by gold have a tiny percentage of actual gold reserves, which means it's still a fiction.
Money has always been based on trust, which is actually quite amazing when you stop and think about it. (I find it fascinating just how much of social order is based on simple trust. Also amazed that when things fall apart, it typically doesn't turn all "Lord of the Mad Maxes", though that doesn't mean I want to live in those places.)
(EDIT: Here's the start of an article explaining problems with gold back currencies far better than I can. Unfortunately, to read the full article, you have to create an account: [^])
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“money is a matter of belief, even faith: belief in the person paying us; belief in the person issuing the money he uses or the institution that honours his cheques or transfers. Money is not metal. It is trust inscribed. And it does not seem to matter much where it is inscribed: on silver, on clay, on paper, on a liquid crystal display.”
― Niall Ferguson, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World
“Banknotes (which originated in seventh-century China) are pieces of paper which have next to no intrinsic worth. They are simply promises to pay (hence their original Western designation as ‘promissory notes’),”
― Niall Ferguson, The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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So instead of trading money for goods, are we just trading debt for goods? Instead of being paid money, we're paid in debt owed by others?
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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A_Griffin wrote: Yes - but then so is gold (upon which most world currencies are based) a speculative commodity.
I kind of wondered what the context of the original OP meant in terms of gold.
Basically no currency in the world is backed by gold.
Only One Currency Is Still Backed By Gold - Business Insider[^]
Those governments that still have gold might chose to diversify but as an asset it is no more meaningful than the actual building (asset) of the town hall or an old fire truck. It is worth something but it has nothing to do with the currency.
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You do know that Gold is a real thing? Bitcoins are generated things - phantoms. If you 'mint' them, they only value they'd have is that of the metal/plastic they're made of.
By the way - what countries, if any, are on the "Gold Standard" ? The cost of gold fluctuates in terms of all currencies - so it's not a standard for any of them. If it were, it wouldn't fluctuate.
Are they any different than regular currency?
That's a bit philosophical.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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You might get a weird look if you try but you can pay for anything with pure gold or silver. I can't think of any business that would not accept gold as a form of legal tender in a transaction.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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Only businesses that keep a handy assay kit available - or at least a bottle of Nitric Acid (which won't eat gold or platinum metals, but will eat nearly any other metal). Lots of look-alike alloys.
A store that would accept a hunk of metal, particularly from a strange, is run by a nit-wit.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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You got me there but if I ran a business, I would take gold in lieu of other forms of payment.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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Why?
Your bank will take money and they will set you up with a business account that you can use to process credit/debt cards. And you can set up paypal if you want to go through that same account.
Your bank will not take gold. That means to use it, like pay the electric bill you are going to need to find someone to buy it. And that someone is not going to buy it at the full market value. So either you need to charge your customers more for gold or you are going to take a financial hit when converting it.
Additionally if your business is moderately successful with gold that means you are going to end up, presumably, depositing large amounts of cash, after conversion, to your account. That makes it more likely that the IRS will trigger full audits.
If you think that this makes it easier to hide assets then you must deal with informants and potential full audits for normal reasons which could then lead to unexplained discrepancies between parts of the business. Doing that is a crime (not civil.)
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If any entity would try to wrestle away the money printing monopoly from any government it will be outlawed faster than you can say bailout.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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That sort of system has been tried multiple times in the past and it always failed.
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What is a "Central Bank"?
And why would they have a significant (presumably) investment in gold such that diversifying to anything else would matter?
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jschell wrote: What is a "Central Bank"?
A newfangled concept, with the FED and the ECB as examples. In these modern times, they invent the economic reality as they go, mostly to prevent declines in the stock-market.
The idea behind the central bank, as being a private entity, is that it keeps the money-press out of the hands of the politicians - since they usually have a strong incentive to debase the money, as history proves.
jschell wrote: And why would they have a significant (presumably) investment in gold such that diversifying to anything else would matter?
Most countries hold gold as a monetary insurance. As much as the media may brand it a barbaric relic, most governments act otherwise.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: A newfangled concept, with the FED and the ECB as examples. In these modern times, they invent the economic reality as they go, mostly to prevent declines in the stock-market.
The idea behind the central bank, as being a private entity, is that it keeps the money-press out of the hands of the politicians - since they usually have a strong incentive to debase the money, as history proves.
I know how those work. But they have no real connection to gold so I was wondering if there was some country that had a "Central Bank" that was in fact seriously invested in gold.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Most countries hold gold as a monetary insurance. As much as the media may brand it a barbaric relic, most governments act otherwise.
Ah that tenuous connection makes the original post somewhat more understandable.
Although that is not the sole or even a completely direct reason for such banks continuing to hold it.
And for that reason conversion it to crypto is absolutely outside the bounds of reason. Since much of the "insurance" value is based on perception of the value of which crypto has none.
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jschell wrote: I know how those work. But they have no real connection to gold so I was wondering if there was some country that had a "Central Bank" that was in fact seriously invested in gold.
There's a list, but I did not have enough time to check it twice 
The gold listed for each of the countries in the table may not be physically stored in the country listed, as central banks generally have not allowed independent audits of their reserves.
jschell wrote: Although that is not the sole or even a completely direct reason for such banks continuing to hold it.
Ah, so you are unfamiliar with Greenspans' opinion? 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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For those of you that are into this sort of thing, does this Samsung Gear S3 Frontier Smartwatch (5647800) require a SIM card (for 4G LTE connectivity), or does this one do everything BUT place/receive calls?
Thanks.
DC
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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It doesn't have 4G (or 3G) connectivity, only Bluetooth and WiFi. It can place and receive calls through a paired mobile phone like a Bluetooth headset.
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That works out very well . . . you can use the phone to call someone and ask them the time.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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