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Basildane wrote: I was shaken
not stirred.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Basildane wrote: But after studying this event, I was shaken.
Then study more...
Volume 52 - CSI[^]
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Basildane wrote: Are you not aware of the event in the 50's when UFO's buzzed Washington, were tracked on RADAR from Andrews Air Force Base, were intercepted by fighter jets and were witnessed by hundreds of eye witnesses included the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES himself
Sigh...
First the president saw nothing.
Second radar is not now and certainly was not then some perfect infallible all seeing device. The understanding and technology behind radar has gotten much better since then which is why weather forecasters all over the world now use it to, accurately, identify weather anomalies of which little was understood then.
Third with an increased understanding of anomalies observers now, both mechanical and human, are better able to understand what they are seeing and thus correctly identify them. That was much less true back then. There is little real evidence (every single video and photograph is a fake but called a 'recreation') of what actually occurred then.
Because of that last point ANY attempt to rationalize a conclusion now is simply wishful thinking. If they were extraterrestrials one can no more prove that now than one can prove that it was nothing more than military hysteria (USSR attacks) and unknown weather anomalies. Because there is no real evidence of anything.
HOWEVER, the most likely explanation, supported by other events, is that mistakes in understanding weather phenomenon and military hysteria (over responding) was likely the sole explanation.
Volume 52 - CSI[^]
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OriginalGriff wrote: UFO's and alien abductions are a modern thing; the pre-1950's equivalent was witches or fairies, the devil or succubi.
Aliens as saviors of the earth have replaced religious saviors, too.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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There are many credible accounts from pilots, backed up by radar tracking from the ground, of unknown objects travelling in odd ways; stopping, accelerating at ridiculous rates etc.
AT the same time it is very likely there is life elsewhere in the universe. Given the ability of life to utilise extreme environments on earth (deep sea ocean vents, a heat and sulphur system, as opposed to the surface, which is a sunlight and carbon cycle system) we could well have life on Europa for example.
Are these alien spacecraft? We just dont know. They could be, they could be some weird unknown natural effect, like ball lightening for example. It can do some very odd things.
modified 19-Dec-17 4:34am.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: There are many credible accounts from pilots
...and there's my problem - for some reason pilots, policemen and soldiers are always completely in control of their perceptions and unable to be deceived by them.
There is an element in pilot training called 'human factors' which very clearly show how easy it is for even pilots to be deceived by their senses.
Although of course being able to back up these claims with radar does add something to their claims.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
modified 19-Dec-17 6:14am.
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It is the radar back up that shows it isnt just pilot hallucination.
There was a case over NZ, between north and south islands, backed up by radar, for example.
Of course it could be some natural phenomenon. Ball lightening, as I mentioned does some strange things.
ball lightning - Google Search[^]
Ball lightning - Wikipedia[^]
It can hover, enter a room, move about. Very strange stuff.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: There was a case over NZ, between north and south islands, backed up by radar, for example.
Hard to tell what you mean but if you mean New Zealand in 1978 then yes there is another explanation. Including the radar...
Search for "New Zealand"
[^]
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Although of course being able to back up these claims with radar does add something to their claims.
In 1952, no that has little to do with anything. Radar was very new then and very crud. There is a reason weather forecasters use it now to identify many things and did not use it at all then.
Volume 52 - CSI[^]
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To even admit the POSSIBILITY of UFO's is to deny the Size of the Universe or the Speed of Light limitation. You guys believe what you want, I'll stick with Einstein and the Astronomers....
Also I am a Science fiction fan since 1956. The 2 Best SF movies ever made were (in order) Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension, and Repo Man...
They call it Science FICTION for a good reason!
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Who knows how far we can push back the boundaries of physics?
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Not that far....
Call me a skeptic, then call me a cab... I'm out of here
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Munchies_Matt wrote: Who knows how far we can push back the boundaries of physics?
Science does. If one makes unlimited assumptions that is magic, not science. And economists also have something to say about it.
For example there is an ongoing estimate of how much it would cost to build one generation ship, if I recall correctly it was 10 trillion dollars. And that is with no assurance that the technology we have would keep it alive.
Following is ascribing to magic when it suggests that anti-matter production costs will go down despite decades in which it has not gone down.
NASA - New and Improved Antimatter Spaceship for Mars Missions[^]
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Munchies_Matt wrote: Are these alien spacecraft?
The problem with this argument is the number of assumptions of which all must be true for it to succeed.
1. Life must exist.
2. Intelligent life must exist
3. Technological life must exist
4. Technological life must exist now (versus the other 20 billion years of the universe.)
5. They must have some form of moving through space that is reasonable and undetectable.
6. They must want to hide from us.
7. They must be able to hide from us, perfectly.
8. The last 3 require MULTIPLE technologies that far surpass anything that the earth has and some of which would violate physical laws.
And probably others.
There are similar lines of assumptions that can lead one to suppose that guardian angles must exist. And that unicorn farts smell like roses.
Munchies_Matt wrote: They could be, they could be some weird unknown natural effect, like ball lightening for example
There are a vast number of just weather effects which are odd and which people who have not study these effects would not identify them. Even when someone knows about some of these without additional information, not readily available to the random person at a random point on the earth, conclusively identifying them can be difficult.
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Yes. No. Maybe.
UFO sightings are a worldwide phenomenon, they are not just restricted to the USA. Are they true? Who knows:
1: If there were alien craft and they didn't want to be seen, they wouldn't be seen. Maybe they don't care if we see them.
2: If there were aliens and they were belligerent, we'd already be dead.
3: Why would they come to this mudball planet out at the edge of an unremarkable galaxy? Why are we so interesting?
4: How come they always land in A**hole, Alabama and not on the White House lawn?
Is there life out there, either in our solar system or on planets around other stars? Highly likely. As has been said, either we are alone or we are not. Either way the implications are staggering.
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Yup.
On the one hand, I think the chances of us being alone in the universe are vanishingly small.
On the other, my intuition tells me that the chances of us being regularly "buzzed" and having no clear evidence of it from verifiable sources are also vanishingly small.
Mind you until I had to deal with a poltergeist in the house I'd have been pretty "nah" about that sort of thing, too (long story, but suffice it to say that I've seen some weird s**t that didn't fit my worldview).
I guess in time we'll see (or maybe we won't!).
Anna ( @annajayne)
about.me | Visual Lint
"Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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Ditto. I have experienced a few things for which I do not have a rational explanation. This resulted in me being open minded about things ... but I consider the source of the stories I read, and most are not credible.
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That's pretty much my position.
Anna ( @annajayne)
Tech Blog | Visual Lint
"Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: the chances of us being alone in the universe are vanishingly small.
As are the odds they can overcome the vast distances to get here, or even to find us out of all the possible locations.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Of course.
Even if you invoke a hyperdrive type-mcguffin the second is still a huge problem.
Anna ( @annajayne)
Tech Blog | Visual Lint
"Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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TNCaver wrote: or even to find us out of all the possible locations
Interesting additional problem with the theory that I hadn't ever considered.
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I am a bit skeptical of the UFO stories that are in abundance on the web. For starters, why do none of professional star gazers find them? Heck, what about wide majority of amateurs who too have decent equipment.
Do I believe UFOs exist? Yes. If I find something flying which I have not seen earlier, by definition, is UFO for me.
Do I believe there are flying objects from another civilization somewhere? May be. I don't know. It would not be smart to deny their existence. However, I wonder if they exist, do they just come here for a stroll? This is a vast topic IMHO and easily ventures into various fields of study that simply confuses me.
"It is easy to decipher extraterrestrial signals after deciphering Javascript and VB6 themselves.", ISanti[ ^]
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You do realize that "unidentified flying objects" doesn't require it come from space. Take it literally (ye-gads!). It means just what it says.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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How many of you really believe UFO stories?
Strictly speaking? Yes, I do believe there are UFO stories out there.
Whether I believe in them is another matter altogether.
What I'm amazed by is how the majority of people immediately make an association between "Unidentified Flying Object" with extraterrestrials when clearly, there's nothing in the definition that infers any of that.
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We obsess because they're unidentified. That bothers us on a fundamental and cultural level; we like to pretend that easily defined boxes are a bad thing, then freak out when things aren't in easily defined boxes.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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