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Munchies_Matt wrote: I take your lack of response as implicit agreement about the rest of my post
If that makes you feel better...
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
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"Junior Devs" is often code for "the boss". And if the Boss wants to see the code in a certain way, that is the way you do it, I suppose.
Brent
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you seem to have the know how !
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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convert it all to visual basic: boss should have no problems with a simpler programming language.
This internet thing is amazing! Letting people use it: worst idea ever!
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Visual Basic is a simpler, easier to read language that can do anything that C# can do — both are converted to the same "executable" language. For highly regulated industries where audits of all kinds are a constant interruption, it has the advantage of being understandable to the auditors. I would rather code in Visual Basic and get something done than waste spend my time explaining C# code to accountants!
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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Maybe a few walk-through session for the junior devs would be adequate.The so called junior devs need to basically maintain or add features, they are not expected to scrap the whole project just because LINQ or reflection is used. As such code is normally optimized / refactored , re-written and not dumbed down! (Maybe if it was the old days where you hardcode everything !!!). Besides , later the junior devs can become senior devs...
Besides there would be documentation on how to work say MVC or other frameworks in which the code would be organized.
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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abmv wrote: Maybe a few walk-through session for the junior devs would be adequate.
Yeah, unfortunately, management's view of training consists of watching Pluralsight videos rather than learning things directly from the senior devs on code that is actually relevant to the company and job.
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Usually the management should be in agreement that in-house training ( or sessions) for developers should be conducted periodically by the senior devs or the software architect, how boring they may be , but it is in they interest of the company to do so.Say the senior dev is on vacation.This could be pro-actively arranged and attendance recorded.This could be done with each major release or milestone of the project.
Pluralsight videos or online tutorial are for people starting to code or learning and not even for junior devs.
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
modified 29-May-18 14:08pm.
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My small team is highly vertically stacked. Our new management declared we would cross train each other. It is all great on paper, but the stress of learning a departed developer's undocumented code in every silo is palpable. In-house training sessions would be a joy in comparison.
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Try "Watching You-Tube" Marc 
Pluralsight costs money remember
Oh and your only allowed to learn during lunch breaks and out-of work time too...
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My boss gives me grief for daring to read and understand CodeProject articles to improve my skills on company time!
The ironic thing is that I limit my learning to material that I could apply at work, where I a limited to Visual Studio 2010 and SQL Server 2012! My desktop is 2 gigs of memory with 72 gigs of disk space. He is the kind of boss who does not trust his underlings to work while not in his sight
At home, I currently use Visual Studio 2017 (community edition) and I just installed SQL Server 2017 (developer edition) on a desktop with 8 gigs of memory and a terabyte of disk space.
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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I document, in line, all but the most standard and obvious code.
If that's not enough - well - HR should get on the case.
Being a tad cynical (for a change). It just seems a way to hire cheaper help, or even ship it overseas to the drone armies.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Oh no. 
We're done for.
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Seems like developers these days are only as good as the answers they get from QA!
Everyone has a photographic memory; some just don't have film. Steven Wright
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Shouldn't high level managers be required to have all their management (mis)functionality documented in case the company needs to replace them quickly? 
It should all be dumbed down (Oh wait...too late --  ) so anyone can replace them.
Oh, yeah, right you can't really document anything they do because it is so _dynamic_. 
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Been there, (haven't) done that 
It's an upside down world really.
I can't imagine this happening in any other field.
Heck, most stuff wouldn't work at all if kids who just got out of school had to be able to understand it.
Guy at NASA: Guys, guys, we've been doing things all wrong!
Other guy: What do you mean?
First guy: I just spoke to an intern and he doesn't really understand how rockets work...
Third guy: So what do you suggest we do?
First guy: Well...[^]
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Sander Rossel wrote: I can't imagine this happening in any other field.
It's called "deskilling" and it's been happening for a long time: things are designed so idiots can maintain / fix them. Think of cars - how many mechanics can swap a bearing instead of a whole assembly? Or strip a brake caliper and replace the seals, rather than fit a new caliper? How many electronic repairs are done with a soldering iron, instead of a screwdriver and a new PCB?
And it's been apparent that many of the new "developers" we get in QA believe in the "bolt on component" approach to coding ...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I'm not sure if it's exactly the same.
I know nothing about cars, especially not in English, so I can't really follow you analogy
In software I'm also about "bolt on component" where possible.
Things should be easy to use even though it was hard to write.
In a car you'll need a combustion engine, but in software it's possible to go for a Flinstones approach (and somehow often done that way) because an engine is too difficult.
However, when you have the engine some maintenance tasks are pretty easy, like changing oil or coolant.
What my boss asked, and I'm guessing what Marc is talking about, we need the complex combustion engine, but it has to be maintained and understood at a deep level by the people who usually change a bolt.
Since that's pretty much impossible you'll end up with a Flinstones car after all
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A line from "Real programmers don't use Pascal" - it was difficult to write, it should be difficult to understand 
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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I thought the idea was to use only the newest features, because that's all the newbs know.
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I've been managing various dev teams (java, .net) for around 15 years now.
I would have never asked my dev's to dumb code down but I would suggest that there have been occasions where devs would use a new tech or dev method not because it was needed or warranted but because it was an opportunity to learn something new.
The cost of that is a general slowdown in the output of your team as the overhead of working out how the new stuff works start to impact timelines and commitments.
If the new way genuinely is better then I think its an easy discussion because the cost/benefit argument should win. I encourage my devs to focus on that and we haven't really had this issue.
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You sound like the type of boss I would like to work for!
If your company is in central Texas and you are hiring, please tell me! I would be delighted to apply!
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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Well, you sound like the type of employee a boss wants heheheh
If you plan on moving to Melbourne, Australia... let me know
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Yeah....
I usually ignore those comment, while saying I will. Because this is what happens, say you use a very useful new syntax such as await SomeTask() .
- it legit make the code more readable, less bug prone, more maintainable
- some people are freaking out because they didn't keep up, and can't parse that syntax, hence find it "overtly clever"
- time pass, they get over their initial shock, everybody does it by the time you force yourself to comply
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I can understand being asked (in a code review) to not be overly cryptic or to ensure any non-obvious code is well commented, but your examples of being asked to not use features like LINQ, metadata, reflection and extension methods (good grief!) seem to imply the company's dev team is grossly under par when it comes to basic software engineering skills. Perhaps it's time to lose this gig and move on?
/ravi
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