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Looks like a lot of change for change's sake: "I can't think of a genuine improvement, but I have to change something".
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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.net core is still 100% controlled and directed driven by ms:
some "open source" but it's absolutely not not "sharing with the community." it's "look [don't touch] at what we can do ...warranty void if this sticker is damaged."
... sharing is a 2 way process, with ms there is no sharing, zero, nada, it's showing.
it's "multi-platform:" sure, in the "lets make your platform do things our way or not at all."
and that is actually the largest risk factor of .net:
- no, not the "lets make your platform do things our way", it's the "our way" bit
yes, in any typical platform from any vendor an important risk factor is: what if they change or/and discontinue X". and regardless of vendor things will change, it can WILL happen with any platform vendor.
- most vendors will offer full explanations AS WELL AS workarounds, backward compatibility and even assistance with change.
- ms though [have many times demonstrated in the past] they will make change without explanation, with little or often no support and rarely if ever assistance, and will brook no feedback suggesting they have abandoned anyone.
@sanderrossel wrote: "I'm especially curious how .NET Core will become the language for Azure which will integrate will all services"
That actually makes me more worried that ms could as easily make .Net Core the only language for Azure which [only by itself] will integrate will all services (and vice-versa???)
and then there is the development tooling, [for sure away from windows, but sometimes even there too]: there's nothing that really covers all of the requirements for successfully managing all the factors of a large project without the need for quite frequent manual intervention. [Again true for many others too] and once more ms will rarely offer support or assistance.
(Let's face it, 98% of they way to 'fix' issues in any ms product has come from the on-line community: others suffering the same issues and banging away at poking sticks in it till they find something that works - because the no support from ms includes no provision of any decent technical documentation - hell even what does exist there nearly all came from the community.)
From a while back reading reviews, another [pro-ms] reviewer summed up .Net core thus (paraphrased):
"it's fine for a small/quick app to do one job, but really not a good choice for large and/or long term enterprise solutions."
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Lopatir wrote: .net core is still 100% controlled and directed driven by ms:
some "open source" but it's absolutely not not "sharing with the community."
So...?
The .NET Framework was never open source, but you favor it above .NET Core because .NET Core is not truly open source? 
Lopatir wrote: it's "multi-platform:" sure, in the "lets make your platform do things our way or not at all."
How's that? You code in C# and build and deploy on Windows and/or Linux.
How are they forcing you to use Linux their way?
Lopatir wrote: - most vendors will offer full explanations AS WELL AS workarounds, backward compatibility and even assistance with change.
- ms though [have many times demonstrated in the past] they will make change without explanation, with little or often no support and rarely if ever assistance, and will brook no feedback suggesting they have abandoned anyone.
Like how VB.NET is still largely compatible with VB1, 25 year old software?
Please tell me how Google and Apple never simply abandon a product.
Or how Angular 2 is fully backwards compatible with Angular 1.
They all make breaking changes from time to time.
Lopatir wrote: That actually makes me more worried that ms could as easily make .Net Core the only language for Azure
That would be commercial suicide...
So far they're only trying to include more languages, like Java and Python.
So far C# with .NET has some benefits, like some standard Visual Studio templates and packages that .NET Core is still missing.
Still, .NET Core integrates pretty easily, something that other languages probably have a little less.
I was just talking that .NET Core will catch up to .NET.
Lopatir wrote: "it's fine for a small/quick app to do one job, but really not a good choice for large and/or long term enterprise solutions."
Why's that?
I think that after two or three years .NET Core is at a level where it can be used for long term enterprise solutions.
Honestly, I think all your arguments are invalid 
You sound like a real Microsoft hater.
You're right about their abysmal support though 
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Sander Rossel wrote: The .NET Framework was never open source, but you favor it above .NET Core because .NET Core is not truly open source?
??? did I say anything remotely resembling that?
My point was ms says "we're open source" when they are not really: O.S. is about sharing both ways, not just showing your junk.
Sander Rossel wrote: How's that? You code in C# and build and deploy on Windows and/or Linux.
How are they forcing you to use Linux their way?
Well, the ms control architecture they like to build single [often monolithic] apps that exclusively control everything, unix (linux' inspiration) is more about small apps each doing their own thing independently and at the same time, ms apps want to fully own the system AND user while, unix apps wait for the user to come to them (without hogging system/resources to force that attention).
(not sure where you are at but for people that have mostly/only developed in windows and never or hardly developed significant apps in the unix realm would ever understand, like trying to explain science to a parrot - they can repeat any you say without ever understanding a single word.)
....
Sander Rossel wrote: Honestly, I think all your arguments are invalid
well coming from developing for a much wider range of platforms, umm, how to say, enjoying their separateness... more worried about people that show up saying "we come in peace" - usually it's the last friendly words spoken before the bloodshed begins. I want windows to be windows, unix (linux) to say unix - they have their roles they are good at, I'm not sure windix or lindows will be so good. Jack of all trades but master of none.
Sander Rossel wrote: You sound like a real Microsoft hater.
Tough call, actually do admire and use/dev on/for many (NOT ALL) of their products, you can't argue with their sucess and in some cases I'll even say their quality is very good.
The way they do business though (yeah including "support" - oh wait, they don't really do support) absolute hater.
Even windows, I prefer 7, but I don't actually mind 10,
but I hate:
- the way they are on purpose killing 7 why can't they just let it be?
- the way they are force-feeding 10 (still, even after 3 huge stuff-ups in a row), makes umm, even army conscription sound more appealing. No need for their methods, who cares they want to reach 1 billion users... build it [properly], and they will come.
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Lopatir wrote: ??? did I say anything remotely resembling that?
Well, since you started hating on the kind-of-open-source, and the original question was whether .NET Core is polluting an otherwise great .NET landscape, I kind of understood you hated on .NET Core for not being completely open source as opposed to .NET.
But I guess you never said that explicitly 
Lopatir wrote: like trying to explain science to a parrot
I guess I'm a parrot then
Lopatir wrote: I want windows to be windows, unix (linux) to say unix - they have their roles they are good at, I'm not sure windix or lindows will be so good. Jack of all trades but master of none.
I actually never worked with Linux, but knowing I can build and use the same apps for both platforms sounds like a win to me.
Lopatir wrote: Tough call
I agree with pretty much everything past this point (although I didn't quite disagree before this point either).
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(this thread is quite old so I'll make this my last comment here)
having said all of what I said I'm actually going to do the opposite
[doing dev in C / linux] I really miss c#, and in fact most often it's the "simple stuff" without farting about looking for libraries/ old code
(ex: just yesterday needed a simple string sub-string search & replace function... now where did I do that last?, search, search, aha! found it! cut...paste, sigh, 15 minutes later back to where I was, why???)
throw in the way better type checking, class structure, inheritance, overloading, much easier memory management (even that simple example above has 'memory management challenges')
- I'm human, inasmuch always prefer the easiest path (lazy: an inherent human trait).
[also mentioned] ms does make some good stuff, c# + .net are among their very best.
And (yes you did say this too) lets face it, most of my apps are targeted for windows, so:
- .net is more 'everywhere' than the next best alternative: java :vomit: [sorry]
- in fact .net core can much more easily be deployed packaged within the .exe
- if the target has something broken in it java is nearly always a nightmare to "repair"
finally
.net core 3 is looking real fine, OK ms isn't porting everything, for instance winforms, but they did put the source out there... there's gonna be some pimple faced geeks that'll branch and port it.
Moral-Me: STOP!!! that's NOT the "proper" way to do desktop for linux,
Lazy-Me whispers: it'll be way easier/faster for that quick-'n-dirty / ported-from-windows code ... ya wanna get some sleep tonight or keep going till the sun rises again?
I know Coca Cola is not good for me,
... and so [unlike when I was much younger] I don't drink it very often,
... but you know, sometimes I just want a Coca Cola, not coffee, not juice, I want that Coke
so what do I do? I get me a Coke.
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I understand the reason for .NET Core and accept the decision based on this. The .NET Framework becomes harder and harder to be innovative in, because there is no real allowance for breaking changes. Sure they are made anyway, but not in a completely controlled way. With .NET core, I can target a long term support version (2.1 for example), and move my app to the new version when I am ready for it, not when Microsoft randomly release a new major version with breaking changes.
I just hate they moved all the legacy stuff like ArrayList and Windows specific stuff into .NET Core. This was a good time to clean up a bit.
Docker containers are not quite where they need to be yet (if it isn't doing "shut op and run my code" more work is needed).
The old Azure roles did not catch on (Microsoft never fixed the startup time which should be seconds, not minutes, and a lot of operations guys simply do not understand it - not surprising, they do not understand no one needs them anymore). So now we are trying with containers, and it is slowly catching on. Once they get sorted out how you ensure you have every image patched it should be ready for use. Maybe Docker will be replaced with something else before they get there... who knows.
Not sure what to use Docker for? If you are in the business of running servers - nothing. This is not for you. If you need to run services (as opposed to servers), then Docker is moving towards something that could be very useful in the future.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Why do they exist, and why should we care?
Given that I can now write C# and control GPIO and SPI interfaces on an SBC running *nix (Debian in my case), yeah, .NET Core rocks. The ASP.NET Core is pretty slick as others have commented. And hopefully soon we'll be able to write GUI apps entirely in C# as well. Tk and flavors rather suck.
One thing though that really annoys me. With ASP.NET / IIS, your DLL's are shadow copied so you can update the DLL on a live website. ASP.NET (or whatever is behind the scenes) waits until all transactions have been completed and then updates the DLL automatigically. An ASP.NET Core running under IIS does not work that way. I have to stop the application pool, update the DLL, then restart the application pool. PITA, and makes automated deployment impossible (at least, I haven't figured out how to remotely stop/start an application pool.)
Latest Article - Slack-Chatting with you rPi
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Marc Clifton wrote: And hopefully soon we'll be able to write GUI apps entirely in C# as well.
3.n and later (not yet stable)
Marc Clifton wrote: I have to stop the application pool, update the DLL, then restart the application pool. PITA, and makes automated deployment impossible (at least, I haven't figured out how to remotely stop/start an application pool.)
And that's one of the reasons we can't move to .net core on our (web) apps. Beyond that, I don't think our sys admins/IIS guys have the skills to deal with it.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Marc Clifton wrote: I have to stop the application pool, update the DLL, then restart the application pool
It's not really the way things are done anymore, so you should not expect much focus on improving this area. Updating running servers one by one is not something that scales well.
While Azure originally introduced web roles that dealt easily with this challenge (though a bit slowly) the modern landscape is a lot more messy. Docker brought standards and run everything everywhere to the table, but other complexities are introduced instead. Aren't they always?
You can for example look at Azure Service Fabric. It can do a lot more than what you need (bringing in it's own Actor model, service infrastructure and what not), but it should also be able to "shut up and run my web service" ignoring all the other complexity. Main challenge: Find the simple parts among all the mess.
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year of the pig is here, time to cook up some good luck.
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I'll wait for the year of the ox...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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0) Created new MVC5 project.
1) Updated all packages (before doing anything else).
2) Bootstrap went from v3 to v4.
3) MVC5 template (more specifically the navbar) did not get updated to reflect use of bootstrap v4.
4) Arrrgggg.
I figured out how to fix it, but now I'm wondering if there's a new MVC5 template available that actually uses Bootstrap v4. I can't look at work because - well - DoD network...
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Even if there was, would you be allowed to use it, or would that have to go through the approvals process as well?
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Yeah, we have a local nuget repository that we can update, but we have to download the packages, put them on a dvd, sneaker-net the dvd to our dev box, and add the new packages to the tfs server... because - well - DoD network.
Right now, we're fighting with connectivity issues that are so bad, none of our sql jobs are succeeding, and our data is approaching a week out of date. Meanwhile, they keep patching our servers to the point that we can't do anything, and even TFS is out of our reach right now (but someone somwhere is "working on it").
It's a major clusterf*ck, and getting worse by the day.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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They won't be happy until the entire network is so secure no one can access anything.
Been there, lived that.
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MarkTJohnson wrote: Been there, lived that.
Note: Past tense?  
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I no longer work for a company that does Dod contracts. I miss part of that gig, working for CGI Federal, but glad I'm no longer being forced to use Delphi 6. It was written into the contract as the tool to build the application and there was no allowance for upgrading.
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Now you know that MVC stands for: Monstrous Vapour Crumbum 
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The whole idea of using NuGet to distribute Bootstrap, jQuery, etc. is flawed. Personally, I don't think the templates should ship with any of that junk. Let the devs add what they want to use, either by downloading the files manually, linking to a CDN, or using Library Manager[^].
Don't worry, it gets worse. Having removed the NuGet packages, if you add a new area and try to add a view to that area, VS2017 often decides to reinstall the "missing" NuGet packages for you. 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Is Microsoft a miniature marshmallow?
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Before everyone says so: you Excel at these Griff!
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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You've got a PowerPoint there! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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