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Nelek1-Apr-20 23:43

1-Apr-20 23:43

den2k88 wrote:
I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland.

I do know people working in big pharma companies or investigating in universties labs too. My wife, some relatives and big number of friends are doctor med. in different specialities.

den2k88 wrote:
They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.

I am not saying they are evil.

den2k88 wrote:
Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it.

I know, and it is a big potential good if the study end correctly, this is clear for me too.
But mutations are a two sided sword and Murphy's laws are bitches. You never know what is going to be the end result, and that's part of my argument.

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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KarstenK1-Apr-20 23:09

KarstenK

1-Apr-20 23:09

The intention could be for scientific research or even an accident. Like happened with the killer bees.

Some Sorcerer's Apprentice could have mad a "bug".

So my answer is a strong "maybe". Unsure | :~

Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:29

1-Apr-20 23:29

I was not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"

M.D.V.

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 0:51

2-Apr-20 0:51

Nelek wrote:
Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?

You mean like animal and plant "husbandry", where:

• Pigs are bred to be fatter and fatter, until they can barely move?

• Dogs are bred to the point where they can't give birth without human intervention?

• Apples are bred for sweetness, to the point where they're basically sugar water, and less healthy than a bag of crisps (Leftpond "chips")?

• Wheat is bred for yield, to the point where 40% of people have at least a mild allergy to it?

Nah, it's not evil.

It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:38

2-Apr-20 6:38

Mark_Wallace wrote:
It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.

I am not expecting it at all.
I have already used the money and the human stupidity in some other messages below.

M.D.V.

KarstenK2-Apr-20 3:38

KarstenK

2-Apr-20 3:38

ofcourse and i provided an example. A lot of "bio invasion" is changing the nature ...

Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 23:09

1-Apr-20 23:09

Casting blame - founded or unfounded - helps no-one. Fix the problem, then work out how it happened and institute procedures to prevent it happening again.

But sensationalist finger pointing by non-scientists just muddies the waters and reduces cooperation at the time it is most needed.

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:26

1-Apr-20 23:26

I am not trying to finger-point. I wanted to have a conversation about the "only because we can it doesn't mean we should"

There have been a couple of messages saying we can have a nice conversation in the lounge. I was trying to give a shot.
I give you that the topic was very probably not the best selection, I just thought this way there would be more participation.

I obviously was wrong Sigh | :sigh:

M.D.V.

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 23:38

1-Apr-20 23:38

I didn't mean to imply you were - I meant the "journalist" who produced the original material.

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Nelek1-Apr-20 23:46

1-Apr-20 23:46

Fair enough.

Sadly sensationalism is sometimes the only thing that starts speaking about something. Afterwards some other sources with a bit more common sense join in (and that was my target, see what people here I consider intelligent can say about)

M.D.V.

Slacker0072-Apr-20 1:11

Slacker007

2-Apr-20 1:11

are you sure you are not a politician? Confused | :confused:

OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:25

2-Apr-20 1:25

That is one of the vilest things anyone has ever said about me! Dead | X|

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

Slacker0072-Apr-20 1:31

Slacker007

2-Apr-20 1:31

well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. D'Oh! | :doh:

OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:32

2-Apr-20 1:32

Nah ... sticks and stones, and all that! Big Grin | :-D

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:34

2-Apr-20 1:34

Anyway, how could I possibly be a politician? Ignoring that I have a spine, I answer questions! Laugh | :laugh:

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 2:16

W∴ Balboos, GHB

2-Apr-20 2:16

Casting blame - it's what people like to do to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

The world's politics is currently in a blame-phase. Certainly in much of Europe and the US. Other places (let's call them authoritarian) have done it since always. You can get away with a lot of abuse in the name of "protecting the motherland/fatherland/holycity/blah".

That's one of the reasons conspiracy theories are as inevitable as breathing. If someone didn't ever study, cut school a lot, etc., and ends up with a lousy job, it has to be the fault of the person who's race and/g-d/language/place-of-birth is different than theirs. Isn't it always?

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Do not escape reality : improve reality !

Rage1-Apr-20 23:41

Rage

1-Apr-20 23:41

Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now, especially after the SARS crisis in the past.
It was proved that the virus could /edit NOT have been created intentionally in labs ; this said, it could have evolved from something created in a lab, but we will never know. Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast.

Here an example of research about corona :Paper coronavirus 2007 - Google Search[^]

/edit: damn, I missed the most important word in my post

modified 2-Apr-20 10:10am.

Nelek1-Apr-20 23:51

1-Apr-20 23:51

Rage wrote:
Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast.

And that's my fear.
i.e. Atomic energy / atomic bomb

Genetic and mutations (or other biotech's) are two-sided swords and murphy's laws are real bitches... if we always push the boundaries (no matter with which intentions, I don't want to include things done in purpose for military) it might explode us in the face. And that's the aspect I wanted to bring in the conversation.

Peniciline was a lucky accident / coincidence.
But what will happen if the next accident / coincidence is something that goes in the opposite direction?

M.D.V.

OriginalGriff2-Apr-20 1:29

2-Apr-20 1:29

Gawd yes - the Common Cold is a set of symptoms caused by a number of viruses, including a couple of Coronaviruses, Rhinoviruses, and so forth.

And we still don't have a cure for that ... probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:18

2-Apr-20 6:18

OriginalGriff wrote:
probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.

M.D.V.

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 3:20

2-Apr-20 3:20

Rage wrote:
Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people)

So far, so good.

Rage wrote:
under cover of trying to find cures

Aaaand you blew it!

Who?

Who would work in a lab that was dedicated to producing a nastier version of SARS?

Which people would get up in the morning, kiss their kids goodbye, go to work, and then work on designing an uncontrollable virus that kills people -- people like their children?

And don't say they'd be designing a controllable one, because if they're good enough to do that kind of work, they're certainly knowledgeable enough to know that there's no such thing as a controllable micro-organism. Killable? Sure. Controllable? No way.

Do you know how many people would be involved with a lab like that? , Scientists, researchers, research assistants, cleaners, HR, buyers, IT support, engineering support, software developers, delivery boys, etc, etc, etc. (Not to mention about 50 managers.)

It's hundreds of people, not just one megalomaniacal nutter and a bunch of little yellow minions.

You need a worshipful society to get enough of the different kinds of staff you'd need; they'd have to mindlessly and undeservedly worship their leader -- a "God on Earth" or a Big Brother type, like Pol Pot, Mao Ze Dong, etc. ISIS could do it, if they could actually get a lab like that together without the West finding out about it and bombing it; North Korea could do it, and I wouldn't put it past the current US administration to think seriously about it.

But the country that most of these accusations are aimed at? Not a hope in Hell. Xi isn't revered or worshipped, like Mao was. He's respected, because he's a pretty remarkable guy (I apologise if this truth about a remarkable human being offends the indoctrinated feelings of some people, but, well, **** 'em; their racism offends me and most of the rest of the world), but if he tried to put together that kind of project, there'd be riots in the streets, and the army (which has a proud revolutionary history) would be on the rioters' side.

Grimly Fiendish, Gru, Scaramanga, and Doctor Doom only exist in movies and comic books, and all the people needed to create such an uncontrollable "weapon" would have to be hired in the real world.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Do not escape reality : improve reality !

Rage2-Apr-20 4:09

Rage

2-Apr-20 4:09

Who ?

China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already.

France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.

Plus bioterrorism is already a thing.[^]

I am not telling that China or anyone has developed in a secret lab the Covid-19, this was clearly proved as a derivation of some animal virus. But this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:21

2-Apr-20 6:21

Rage wrote:
China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already.

France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.

I think there is a lot behind this arguments, but that is enough for a new thread and can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly Sigh | :sigh:

M.D.V.

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 8:31

2-Apr-20 8:31

Nelek wrote:
can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly

Only if people stop discussing it as civilised people.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Mark_Wallace2-Apr-20 8:28