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raddevus wrote: But if it were Microwave Bacon Code then it would be expected to be downloaded for free to every microwave
I think you do not know how many software companies exist now and have been created in the past.
Many fail. But so do companies that have tangible products. Consider Pet Rocks. Or more recently the significant downturn of NFTs.
I worked for a software company that had at least two funding rounds and at least from the demonstration standpoint had a wonderful service. But there was no reasonable way that they could have ever monetized it. The market was very limited and very cash poor.
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jschell wrote: I think you do not know how many software companies exist now and have been created in the past.
Many fail.
I absolutely get that. I think that mostly what businesses do, is fail.
It's very difficult to get a business going. IMO, Much harder than writing code.
That's why I'm thinking / hoping that now that I have a great idea for a SaaS that could be offered to Companies of all sizes to run On-Prem that solves a specific problem for them, that I want to make sure if I release it to open source (and I really want to release it to Open Source) then I can protect myself so if it really takes off as I think it would that I would then be remunerated properly.
It's definitely not just about the $$$ for me, because I've been a dev for 30 years.
But if the thing takes off I definitely don't want to say, "oh well, I could've made happy $$ that would help my family but since I opened-sourced it I still drive a crappy car and am living paycheck to paycheck.
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Don’t go on premise…
Host it in the cloud for them, and rent it to them.
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englebart said: Host it in the cloud for them, and rent it to them.
I definitely want to do that - it’s a perfect SaaS solution but that also means all the support work of keeping the SaaS highly available etc
So I’d like to also “sell the software itself so anyone can run it on-prem and support it themselves.
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englebart wrote: Host it in the cloud for them, and rent it to them.
...and then it is a company.
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raddevus wrote: then I can protect myself so if it really takes off as I think it would that I would then be remunerated properly.
Yes, by creating a company.
You can create a license for the product/service of the company that allows usage on a limited scale for free. And after that they pay.
There are already many examples of that out there.
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Routinely.
1. I do it to raise my professional profile and it has.
2. I do it because I love to code, and I feel like contributing what I dream up to the world. I'd be coding (on my own time) anyway, so why not contribute?
3. When I do put something out there, I feel an obligation to it, so it gets matured and improved in a way code I believe only I am using never will.
I'm sure I could think of some ancillary benefits as well, given time, but those are big one for me.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
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Thanks for joining the discussion.
Those are very good reasons for personal growth etc. I believe in that too.
Here's a question though,
"What if?
1. You discovered that BigCorp created a service which uses your component and serves 100 million people
2. BigCorp profits $1 per year from each user
3. You get nothing. Not even recognition because it is running inside their "Walls" as part of a service that is not distributed so there is nothing you can do, because they use it for free.
Would you be okay with that, if you found out 20 years from now? Meanwhile you've had to work to build your own retirement etc. and to pay for your own healthcare etc.
This is most likely happening because of the world of :
Microservices / Web Apps behind the wall of huge corps.
Devs write code that is OSS which is incorporated into huge services that those sole devs could never create but they have actually created part of the web service themselves.
Huge corps aren't selling the code itself but instead are selling the use of the service so they fall outside the limitations of OSS license.
They get free work.
modified 21-Aug-23 16:48pm.
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I guess I've never considered that, and feel better about things continuing not to consider it. 
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
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Thanks for the discussion.
honey the codewitch wrote: and feel better about things continuing not to consider it.
Yeah, I get it and I agree.
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Sorry, not trying to end it early, it's just I ran out of anywhere to go in this convo. 
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
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I guess if you are getting f****d in the a** and there is nothing you can do about it, then it is best not to think about it? Is that your position?
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I don't agree with that.
For starters google has not taken my code and used it, so the hypothetical I was responding to was just that.
And if I didn't enjoy what I was doing, I wouldn't do it.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
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raddevus wrote: Would you be okay with that, if you found out 20 years from now?
What if instead they hired you as a 'guru' to support all of their product lines because you were the author. And paid you significantly more than you were making as a developer.
Some real open source examples that you might want to consider
- C# Moq. They made a badly planned effort to monetize their product recently.
- MySQL. Now owned by Oracle who is sort of attempting to monetize. So much so that there is now a branch taken from the original named MariaDB.
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jschell wrote: What if instead they hired you as a 'guru' to support all of their product lines because you were the author. And paid you significantly more than you were making as a developer.
That is a very good point and is one of the dreams of OSS devs, but I'm just not sure how much it really happens.
I think that it doesn't happen as often as we hope because I think BigCorps are often using things without wanting anyone to really know -- as a way of limiting litigation.
I also think that statistically it doesn't happen much because there are vast numbers of OSS components but rarely do I hear of this.
But, hopefully I'm wrong and it does happen more often than I think.
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raddevus wrote: I think that it doesn't happen as often as we hope because I think BigCorps are often using things without wanting anyone to really know
Hardly.
There are no human organizations that are omniscient. Organizations, even more so that people, blunder their way through their history based on nothing more than irrational biases that one or groups within have. Why irrational? Because they almost never use any real data for the decisions. Even those that present data often do so with incomplete sets and using cherry picking to support their forgone conclusions.
The most prevalent reason for not hiring a specific OSS developer is because the company does not actually need that expertise. Where need is still based on irrational biases.
Note that I am not using those terms to denigrate but merely to describe the actual processes.
As an actual example of this I have never worked with even a single developer who actually researches licenses before using third party code. I have seen developers claim that because it was found on the internet it is free to use without regard. I have seen developers that do not even know that licenses exist. I have seen developers that cannot read a license and understand what it means. However I have seen some managers that were at least aware of why that could be a problem. But I have also seen 'C' level people who were completely unaware of the problem.
I certainly don't expect any other group within an organization to be smarter than developers.
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Stockfish chess: Those guys (three not one) were making zero for ages. But I feel they are doing pretty well now. Open source free for private use. But it is sooo good that many chess sites have integrated it. And commercial use you pay dollars. Why they started, and kept going, and going ? certainly not cash.
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
modified 21-Aug-23 17:11pm.
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raddevus wrote: Ok, I'll give you this one, Linus seems to have done ok, but can you name any others who have really succeeded?
Like with any pyramid scheme, the first person makes a fortune. Everyone else gets screwed. That's why they keep on coming back.
Keep in mind, I say this as a dude who loves OSS. Only thing is, I don't see any other professional on the planet giving away their time and work for free. In my not so humble opinion, OSS is great for a few main things...
- You hate writing documentation. Seriously, it's free so screw your users.
- It's very niche and requires public trust.
- You're just a solo dev and want to use the power of the Internet to find peeps to help.
- You're doing it for fun and don't give two flips about what happens to the code.
- You don't care about supporting your code and do not warrant it.
OSS will always take a commercial application to realize any financial benefit. Which while great, is also part of the movement towards making code writing less and less valuable. Especially as AI gets better. That means the programmers of the future will have to be more people oriented and less code monkeys... because open source or not... people won't be writing code in the future no more than people not riding horses across country.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 21-Aug-23 19:00pm.
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I agree with you 100%. Your assessment of the situation is right on point.
I especially like when you said,
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I don't see any other professional on the planet giving away their time and work for free.
Also, you're bullets for times when you would open source code are spot on.
Thanks so much for joining the discussion. I really enjoyed reading your points and they encouraged me to see that at least someone else sees it as it is.
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Any time man. It was a good topic.
Jeremy Falcon
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To leave a legacy.
Other than posting articles here, I don't do open source software.
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I have been in the same spot long enough to retire multiple libraries. 10 years seems like a typical life span for any technological component.
Business components last longer.
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raddevus wrote: I'm pretty sure OSS is now just a way for large companies to use developer's solutions without ever having to pay them.
Any volunteer work robs someone from a paid job.
For software, I am guilty, I like to pay back the community that educated me. There was no school when I was young.
In other fields, yes, there's a growing trend for volunteers. They deserve it. If people are willing and it contributes then no harm done, right?
--edit
And because I could. The name of the company is Exceptional Magic, and one article and a quick download changed it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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raddevus wrote: Linus & Linux?
Ok, I'll give you this one, Linus seems to have done ok, but can you name any others who have really succeeded?
Linus Torvalds did not do okay! He created Linux and Git. IBM bought Red Hat for 34 billion in 2019 but he did not get a single cent though IBM and Red Hat are long time sponsors of Linux Foundation. Microsoft acquired GitHub for $7.5 billion in 2018 and he did not get any money while people got rich from his creations. Do you think this is fair?
Regarding OSS, open source means free as in free speech, not free beer, meaning one can make money from selling OSS. But most people misunderstand the meaning of free to mean free beer. Most companies use OSS because they do not cost anything. On the one hand, we have very expensive Windows license, while on the other, we have free Linux OSes. Why can't we have some OS (that is priced moderately) in between?
modified 22-Aug-23 3:09am.
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