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Jeremy Falcon wrote: It's when peeps start lying about another product they know little about as the justification, that's just no bueno.
This. So much this.
In the case of Git vs TFS, like I said, I stick with TFS because it's all I'm comfortable with (right now) and I haven't had any real bad experiences with it. I managed to get myself in trouble with Git in the past (my own ignorance / my own fault), and fortunately I had people who helped me out, but I still have zero problem saying Git is the way to go. I just wish I had the time and motivation to learn it, and learn it well, from a good, up to date, and reliable source.
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dandy72 wrote: I managed to get myself in trouble with Git in the past
I'll admit, Git does have a higher learning curve. That's both good and bad ya know. There are things I can pull off with Git that would be impossible in other SCMs - I think. I know Git the best these days. What I do know for sure is that I can do just about anything one can imagine, but that comes at a cost of a learning curve.
Anywho, if you don't have a pressing need for it and you do have something that works, that's a totally acceptable stance. I say that all the time about tech. Time is finite. There's other things life... like going outside... that are important too.
dandy72 wrote: I just wish I had the time and motivation to learn it, and learn it well, from a good, up to date, and reliable source.
Yeah, unfortunately, the best reliable source is other developers actively using it IMO. And even that's not a perfect scenario, but that's how I learned it. Git books never really did it for me.
Jeremy Falcon
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dandy72 wrote: Who gets excited about TFS??
I don't get excited about any tool. Just as I don't get excited when I decide whether to use a hammer, saw or screw driver.
I do know that git, and this is by design, only does versioning(labeling) at the repo level. That is entirely appropriate for a tool that was designed for open source libraries.
But in a company enterprise system the ability to version (label) within a sub-code tree without managing subsystems as independent deliverables is something that can be very useful for large complex systems.
This is appropriate for mid-size companies where they have gotten big enough that there is now more than one team but not many.
When a company gets big enough of course they will start need to actively managing multiple deliverables including libraries. (It can be interesting to read what google uses for source control and git is not it.)
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jschell wrote: I don't get excited about any tool. Just as I don't get excited when I decide whether to use a hammer, saw or screw driver.
Hypothetical situation: I suppose if you repeatedly have really bad, frustrating experiences with one tool, and have to put up with it for long periods of time (because there's just nothing better out there), then you find out about some other tool, give it a try, and it works a lot better - and you never go through a bad experience ever again - that'd be reason enough to get excited about something.
I'm not saying this is what happened with my coworker, but I had to smile at his enthusiasm using a software program. You don't see that often. Bless him for that, I say.
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dandy72 wrote: frustrating experiences with one tool,
Yes. Except of course it doesn't even need to be plural.
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Edit: Here's what the Users' Manual for CMS has to say about Classes (which are very like Labels in TFS.)
5.1.2 Classes
A class is a set of specific generations of elements that can be manipulated as
a unit. A class can hold only one generation of any element.
You use classes to represent the state of development of a system or set of
elements at a particular time or stage. You can think of a class as a picture
taken of a library at a particular time. For example, you might create a class
named FIRST_DRAFT that contains only those generations of elements that
were used in producing the first draft of a manual.
Typically, you create a class to contain generations of all the components of a
software system for a release version of a product. You can establish classes
for different stages or milestones. For example, you could establish one class
for implementation, a second for testing, and a third for generations that
have completed the first two stages. As each module progresses through each
stage, you assign each generation to an appropriate class; thus, you can easily
determine your progress by displaying the contents of the different classes, and
you can later reconstruct any stage of development.
Once you insert an element generation into a class, further changes made to
the element are not reflected in the contents of that class.
HP DECset for OpenVMS
Guide to the Code Management System
Order Number: AA–KL03H–TE
July 2005
In particular: "or set of elements" -- the developer has full control over which generations of which elements are included in the class.
Note that VSS does not have such a feature, but it was included in TFS.
CREATE CLASS class-name[,...] ‘‘remark’’
Command Qualifiers Defaults
/[NO]LOG /LOG
/OCCLUDE[=option,...] /OCCLUDE=ALL
Creates one or more classes. After creating a class, you can place any related
set of element generations in that class by using the INSERT GENERATION
command. The CREATE CLASS command does not automatically place any
generations in the created class. For more information on classes, see the
HP DECset for OpenVMS Guide to the Code Management System.
HP DECset for OpenVMS
Code Management System
Reference Manual
Order Number: AA–QJEVC–TK
July 2005
The phrase, "any related set of element generations", may give the impression that there already has to be a relationship between the elements in the repository, but that is not the case. Adding generations of elements to a class defines a relationship between them.
modified 2-Nov-23 13:57pm.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: Labels. Git doesn't have them at all and they are critical.
They're called tags in git. Seriously man, we're supposed to be better than this.
PIEBALDconsult wrote: And integrated ticketing.
I'm guessing you don't use any non-MS product? I'm sure there are tons of other products that do but Jira, as one example, has integrated with Git for years now. I mean years.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: They're called tags in git.
No, those are a totally different thing. And I see no purpose for them.
From what I see (RTFM), a Tag in Git (or Subversion) includes a version of all of the items in a repository.
That's not what a Label in TFS (or a Class in CMS) is. With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not.
Git should add this feature, it shouldn't difficult, and it will make things so much easier.
modified 2-Nov-23 12:28pm.
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How so? Isn't the purpose of a label to find a specific commit?
To quote Microsoft:
Team Foundation Version Control (TFVC) labels provide a way for you to take a snapshot of your files. Later, you can refer back to that snapshot. By using your label, you can view, build, or even roll back a large set of files to the state they were in when you applied the label. I realize you can name labels in TFS. You can also name tags in Git. So, how is it not the same thing?
Jeremy Falcon
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As I said, a Label typically contains only a small subset of the items in the repository.
Edit: That quote from MS is just a very brief overview of what Labels can be used for. It basically says nothing about what Labels are and the broad range of what they can be used for.
If a Git user finds himself using TFS and wants to know how to make the equivalent of a Tag, the answer is a Label, but that doesn't mean that Labels and Tags are the same thing, they are not. They are not equivalent; Labels are greater than Tags.
Find the actual documentation for Labels and read it.
modified 6-Nov-23 13:43pm.
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Ok, so if it's backwards... then as I said Git already does that. You still didn't define what constitutes a subset btw. So, let's just assume it's a diff of files that changed between commits. Git does this. Saying it doesn't isn't correct.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: it's a diff of files that changed between commits
No. That is not what a Label/Class is. That may be a typical use for a Label, but I can put any version of any item in the repository in a Label any time I want. An item/element doesn't need to have changed to be put in a Label/Class.
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So then I didn't get it backwards... which means we clearly have a breakdown in communication here.
Jeremy Falcon
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Yes, you still don't understand what a Label is in TFS or what a Class is in CMS.
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So, you're saying the dude in the video is wrong as well? Because I'm not hearing anything substantial exept you saying "I'm wrong" when to be honest I don't think you know what I'm saying. I've cited three sources saying what a label is and presented several ways you can achieve what you're after in git. I haven't used TFS in a looooooong time, but that doesn't I'm incapable of understanding.
Side note, there's yet another way to have public vs private stuff in a repo btw. Git can also use submodules to relate two tepos. That's a better design than trying to integrate that into the same repo. My point is, what you're trying to do in TFS I can promise you can do in Git. But, I'm all I'm hearing is I don't know what labels are after citing sources that say otherwise. And that's fine if I don't know but tell me what I don't know with something concrete and practical.
I've already told you Git can do what you're asking. You seem to ignore that. So, if I'm being honest, it seems like you just can't admit you're wrong about Git. Which is silly if I'm being honest. You've already heard me say I could be wrong about labels, but I don't think I am. Which means, this is no longer an intellectual chat.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: you're saying the dude in the video is wrong as well?
Most likely, but I haven't watched it and I have no intention of watching it. Very likely he doesn't present the full extent of what Labels are and can be used for.
Bloggers and YouTubers rarely cover anything in-depth -- they cover only what they can fit in a presentation, not all that can be known. Read the documentation for the full story.
Maybe he is wrong, or incomplete, in which case why watch it?
If he isn't wrong, then he and I have both failed to explain the situation to you adequately, so why watch it?
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I've already told you Git can do what you're asking.
And I've told you it doesn't. So what's your point?
Jeremy Falcon wrote: you just can't admit you're wrong about Git.
I will admit I'm wrong if I'm proven wrong, but so far I have not been.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I could be wrong about labels
I believe you are.
I know Labels in TFS and Classes in CMS, and what I have seen in the documentation for Git and Subversion tells me that Tags are not as flexible.
So far I have seen no argument or evidence that Tags are as flexible, all I seem to see is a mistaken view that Labels and Classes not as flexible as they actually are -- that Labels (and therefore Classes) are as brain-dead and useless as Tags.
It is a simple fact that Labels and Classes are far superior to Tags.
I have looked at the Git (and Subversion) documentation and I see no indication that a Tag can contain versions of only selected items in the repository.
This is the strength of Labels and Classes.
Show me where a Tag can contain a subset of the items, not a simple snapshot of everything in the repository.
And even though you may not have a need for that, I and the teams I've worked on do need that.
Without that feature, Git is unusable. As is Subversion, as is VSS. Git needs to add this feature. Let me know when they do.
modified 6-Nov-23 13:45pm.
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Ok whatever dude. It's clear you didn't actually read my posts. So now this is another kiddie argument. You go on being whatever kinda close-minded dude you need to be to feel good about yourself. This is a waste of time.
Jeremy Falcon
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I know what a Tag is (in Subversion and Git). I have known what a Tag is for many years. I do not need to read your posts to know what a Tag is. You have told me nothing which I didn't already know.
You seem to have a problem understanding what a Label (in TFS) or Class (in CMS) is, even though I have tried to explain it several times now.
The closed mind is on your side, not mine. You are convinced that a Tag is the same thing, when it most definitely is not. Labels and Classes are much more flexible than Tags.
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"It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid." - Einstein
Just because you said you know what we're talking about, while not actually engaging in the chat, means you're just saying that. Go on, be that way. You don't need friends.
Jeremy Falcon
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Then show me that Tags are as flexible as Labels. So far you have not, even though I have asked you to. To this point, all I have seen you doing is denying that Labels are more flexible than Tags -- even though they are.
I have tried to explain the flexibility of Label several times in this thread, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Maybe the failing is on my side, so I'll try to explain it with an example...
Let's say I have a repository, and I check in v1 of files A, B, and C.
With Git (or Subversion) I can create a Tag which represents a snapshot of v1 of those three files.
Then I check in v2 of those files.
With Git (or Subversion) I can create a Tag which represents a snapshot of v2 of those three files.
Correct so far? Yes?
If I am using TFS (or CMS), I can create Labels (Classes) which do exactly that, but I can also create Labels (Classes) which:
Contain v1 of file A and v2 of file B and does not include file C.
Contain v2 of file A and v1 of file B and does not include file C.
Labels and Classes can also be modified after they have been created -- perhaps after v3 has been checked in.
My understanding is that Tags in Git and Subversion cannot do that. Am I wrong?
Whether or not you in particular have a need for this feature is irrelevant. CAN Tags (or some other feature I don't know about) in Git do that? I have seen no evidence in the documentation that it can. If so, where does the documentation explain how to do it?
IF Git actually does have a feature which provides the functionality of Labels (in TFS) or Classes (in CMS), then I need to know. But, to my knowledge, it is not Tags and so far you have not addressed that question.
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I deleted my reply because I don't want to be a part of this conversation anymore. You can think what you want. I don't care. You're flying solo now.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
This is the first time you actually talked to me. The fact you get all uppety over your poor communication skills is pretty sad man. So now, I'm going to freaking repeat myself. If you choose to ignore me twice, that's on you. But you're wasting my time here and this point I'm going to bill you. This is childish and ridiculous. NOW, SINCE YOU ARE TALKING DOWN TO ME... (GO AHEAD AND DENY IT) I'LL USE BOLD TOO. PIEBALDconsult wrote: Labels and Classes can also be modified after they have been created -- perhaps after v3 has been checked in. I've addressed one way to do that, but I'll explain another. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GIT THAT'S OK. JEEZE. But, if you need to do that, you can create a commit and tag it that 100% is cherry picked from different commits or DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF COMMITS. THIS IS 100% DOABLE SO NEXT TIME READ MY POST. PIEBALDconsult wrote: Labels and Classes can also be modified after they have been created -- perhaps after v3 has been checked in. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING. GIT WORKS MORE LIKE THE BLOCK CHAIN. IF YOU WANT TO MODIFIY THAT THEN CREATE A NEW COMMIT WITH WHATEVER CHERRY PICKED FILES YOU WANT AND RECREATE THE TAG OFF THAT. PIEBALDconsult wrote: Am I wrong? YES! In two ways, the second being you don't actually read the posts you're arguing on. I don't care anymore if you deny that, any intelligent person knows the truth. Anything else you want to say? I've already lost all respect for you. Jeeze. This is the reason I loathe CP at times. What a waste of life.
Thank you for finally acknowledging that you understand that Tags in Git are not the same as Labels in TFS and Classes in CMS. Now please stop telling people that they are, because that's wrong. Labels and Classes are superior to Tags.
Perhaps you are saying that Tags in Git are better than Tags in Subversion. I hope that's true anyway.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: This is the first time you actually talked to me.
No, it isn't. I have replied to many of your responses, but you have not addressed my concerns until now.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: I've addressed one way to do that
No, you haven't. All I have seen you do until now is repeat what I already know from the documentation.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: tag it based on files that are 100% cherry picked from different commits
Show me the syntax to do that. I have seen no such command in the documentation.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.
It is a very good thing. Yet Classes in CMS (I'm unsure about Labels in TFS) can be locked to prevent changes.
In the team I was on which used CMS, there was a Class for the next build. We developers would add items to the class throughout the sprint, then when it came time for the build, the configuration management team would lock the Class and begin the build.
Freedom beats prohibition in every case.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: CREATE A NEW COMMIT
Why the frack would someone create a needless commit just to create a Tag? That's insane.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: WITH WHATEVER CHERRY PICKED FILES YOU WANT AND RECREATE THE TAG OFF THAT
That's insane. It is nowhere near as useful as Labels and Classes which can be created and managed months or years after a commit.
I ask again: Can you perform the exercise I described above with Git? I believe you just said that you cannot, which is what I have been saying all along but which you have been denying.
You don't have to like it, but I need it.
modified 8-Nov-23 10:03am.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not.
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit, my understanding is that is a changeset. Keep in mind I haven't used TFS in years, so my memory is rusty.
What non-Git peeps don't get is that Git doesn't need that feature. Git was designed from the ground up to be great a diffing, merging, etc. I've never seen another SCM do it better. If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
Jeremy Falcon
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I suspect you never used Labels in TFS either, many people don't.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit,
Certainly, but...
A Changeset may contain items which are not to be deployed.
A Label can contain versions of items from multiple Changesets.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Git doesn't need that feature
Yes, yes it does. And I suspect they can alter Tags so they do it.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
Given this video (it's 2 minutes only), either this dude is wrong or labels are meant to tag a specific set of files, as well the MS link suggested...
TFS 2013 Tutorial : 24 - How to Apply Labels in Team Foundation Server 2013 using visual Studio - YouTube
You can modify tags in git and labels in TFS so I'm not sure why bringing this up is relevant.
If you need to stage files not marked for release that are in your repo for some reason, let's say internal documentation, that can be achieved with git 100%. However, that's a bad design to do that in the SCM itself. Anything exclusionary should be a part of the build process. So, to keep this on point... right now, I'm mentally considering a changeset like a commit in Git terms.
Given that, if for some reason you need a label of two different changesets that are completely unrelated (history-wise) to one another in a label, again Git doesn't work that way. Nor should it. That's just a bad design. If you need that, then merge or rebase into whatever branch you're working on in question and create a tag off that. You'll have exactly the same thing but with a consolidated history trail.
Git is more analogous to the blockchain in terms of a history trail. That's a good thing.
Also, if labels aren't used to tag a release, why are people saying it is?
Jeremy Falcon
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