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Member 15347602 wrote: but they only know how (hopefully) to implement a nice GUI
That's a hell of an assumption, and a hope I would not have. But maybe you have done a crap job of hiring... If so, maybe f1 = fire crap programmers and start over.
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Quote: That's a hell of an assumption
I'm not writing about 'one man shows' which I assume you are in 
It's more about enterprise company things.
modified 4-Oct-21 21:01pm.
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Member 15347602 wrote: It's more about enterprise company things.
Not sure what that means but....
Large companies always trend toward the average. At best.
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Unless your business is a common one, you always have to train incoming personnel in the domain knowledge they need to know in order to do their jobs. This includes developers.
Expecting them to know a priori 'the business' is naive at best. Your 'code monkey' term indicates an attitude of contempt toward your coworkers, which doesn't help matters.
Teaching them what they need to know would be more useful.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote: you always have to train incoming personnel in the domain knowledge
I have often said the same. It is better to retain staff ond upskill them on technical knowledge than to use what HR call 'fresh blood' with the technical skill but without history on how their particular organisation ticks. Technical domain skills are (in theory) easy to acquire; but business domain is specific to an organisation and cannot be simply bought in. Business domain include how the organisation works and how the code base that supports it works; they are one-offs, even if the organisation is using an industry standard package. I've been in my current job for over 5 years and there are huge swathes of the business side that I have not fathomed (especially their software base).
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Member 15347602 wrote: but they do not have
You are making some wild assumptions there. Or maybe your recruitment ads need some work. Either way it is easy to see where the problem is.
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Member 15347602 wrote: any idea about the business
In my opinion, it's the business' job to know about the business.
I should know just enough to do my job, but I should be told so by... Yes, the business.
You can't expect a developer to know about programming and everything related (databases, cloud, networking, etc.) and also know everything about whatever business you're working in (if it's even the same as a developer's previous job(s)).
Even if I know about some domain, let's say transport, every transport company probably has their own way to do things.
I could make something amazing that would've worked wonderfully at another business, but not yours.
Now go ask "the business people" if they know what their neighbor does, they don't.
Sales doesn't know accounting doesn't know planning doesn't know IT...
Yet people expect developers to know about all of them 
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But you're talking about "developers". IT is about a lot more than "coding" (which I think the original questioner implied through the term "code monkeys"). There used to be disciplines (that word again) such as business analyst, systems analyst etc and I'm sure there still are. It's their job to understand the business and its requirements, and translate that into systems requirements for the developers to build.
The other issue is that "knowing the business" in the original context mentioned above (i.e. knowing about, say, "logistics") is useful but if every developer in that industry knows generic "logistics", then there is no innovation, no USPs, no advantage.
As a "full stack" freelancer I'm constantly trying to not only learn my client's business, but bring knowledge and ideas from other industries (clients) together with new technology-related ideas and concepts to try and give the client that innovation and advantage. It gets frustrating when the client tells me too precisely what they "want" and doesn't involve me in their business processes - it's like having my hands tied and I know I can't bring the added value I'd like.
So to address the original question - it may be that the environment in question is too developer-heavy, and actually needs some business analysts to act as a channel for business requirements to get converted into development specs. Failing that, if it's a small site that can't justify multiple roles, get the developers on some business analysis and systems design courses.
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DerekT-P wrote: But you're talking about "developers".
So did the OP, although he called them "code monkeys".
DerekT-P wrote: There used to be disciplines (that word again) such as business analyst, systems analyst etc and I'm sure there still are.
I've worked with them, so they're still around.
DerekT-P wrote: As a "full stack" freelancer I'm constantly trying to not only learn my client's business, but bring knowledge and ideas from other industries (clients) together with new technology-related ideas and concepts to try and give the client that innovation and advantage. It gets frustrating when the client tells me too precisely what they "want" and doesn't involve me in their business processes - it's like having my hands tied and I know I can't bring the added value I'd like.
Agreed on everything you said, though I wouldn't call you, or me, a code monkey.
And technically, we're not just developers either.
I do like my client to tell me exactly what they want, and then I can go about and tell them how I'm going to do it.
When the customer starts to tell me about the how, I get annoyed, because that's them telling me how to do my job.
DerekT-P wrote: Failing that, if it's a small site that can't justify multiple roles, get the developers on some business analysis and systems design courses.
Exactly, I've worked for such a company.
Except we didn't get courses, we just went to the client, had some meetings, and started building.
Any questions were asked directly to the client, as we ran into them, by phone or email.
It was pretty ad-hoc, which is how I still do most of my coding 
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DerekT-P wrote: I'm constantly trying to not only learn my client's business, but bring knowledge and ideas from other industries (clients) together with new technology-related ideas and concepts to try and give the client that innovation and advantage
So did I... but that came with experience and not learning the business of my next project in advance...
Specially when my next project was assigned to me, and then to be started in a couple of days (at best yesterday).
DerekT-P wrote: It gets frustrating when the client tells me too precisely what they "want" and doesn't involve me in their business processes - it's like having my hands tied and I know I can't bring the added value I'd like.
I had a customer that was like that and yes, I give you that it is frustrating. But most of the "business" doesn't know enough about our business to really know if you are doing the things in a way or in another (as long as there is not visible change in the outside)
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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That's consultant thinking.
Or are you implying that programmers aren't part of the business? 
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Depends, I've never felt myself a part of the business as I'm always just an external programmer.
I'm part of a business, just not the customer's 
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In my personal experience, programmers are often the people with the best understanding of how the business actually works.
But that is obviously depending on the size of the company and probably isn't true for companies where IT is of secondary importance.
In short, mileage will vary.
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That's a scary thought though...
Can you imagine how little the average person knows about their job? 
I've certainly met people who "press this button, which does stuff."
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I know.
And guess who programs that button.
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After a Windows "Search" (View: details, columns: "Date modified", "Type", "Size", "Folder") and a results returned (484 items), the search engine stops and one can scroll through the list of filenames. In the URL control window for that Windows Explorer display the message is "Search Results in {computer name}".
Now, if I go to the main menu and tab to "View" I see a ribbon of icons where I can change that view to list (and four others ... obviously). Why, when I depress the List icon, does the SEARCH happen all over? I have to wait for what seems to be another"search" to take place?
What's going on here?
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Member 15347602 wrote: but they do not have (and are not willing/able to get) any idea about the business...
Eh?
Why should that matter? Unless of course you do not have the process (discipline) in place to tell them what they need to know to do their job. And not someone elses.
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bananas !
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Faramir: "Nazgûûûûl!"
Witch-king of Angmar: "The N-word, really? That's wraithist..."
Gets his coat and rides away on Shadowfax
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That reached a new low in punning. 
(Insert Dan Neely's puking man here)
Sander Rossel wrote: Gets his coat and rides away on Shadowfax
Who was that masked man, and why, oh why did we let him get away?!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Ok. You can have the one really bad pun.
Just don’t make a hobbit of it.
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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That's a very bad pun. Ring me when you have one that rules them all.
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Hippo Birdie ![Sheep | [baah]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/sheep.gif)
Hippo Birdie
Hippo Birdie dear @code-witch
Hippo Birdie
Have a great day! ![Jig | [Dance]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/jig.gif) ![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif) ![Badger | [badger,badger,badger,badger...]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/badger.gif)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Congratulations ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif) ![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Happy Birthday Honey!!!
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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