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Hi, Tushar.
Just curious - do you find that the certifications like MCP are a significant factor when you're looking for a job? I typically work as a mercenary in the US, and I find that people don't really care that much about the certification programs, but rather just tend to focus on job experience.
Of course, my experiences may not be representative of the whole...
Chistopher Duncan
Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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The MCP can be helpful when starting out, but eventually its a good idea to move on to a premier cert. Typically MCPs make less than people that aren't certified just due to the fact that most MCPs have little experience. To me, certification is proof (to myself and my employer) that I work hard at what I do, even outside of the workplace. Its something tangible.
I can see in a consulting position where certs may not matter as much. But then again, the biggest MS shop around here offers a quick 5k bump in salary for holding a premier certification...
Do you see certification as ever hurting your possibilities at landing a contract?
Andy Gaskell, MCSD MCDBA
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AndyG wrote:
Do you see certification as ever hurting your possibilities at landing a contract?
No, not at all. In this business, continuing education is always a Good Thing.
However, that having been said, there are two reasons that I don't personally pursue certifications. The first is simply a matter of practicality. There are only so many hours in the day, which for me are usually filled with an array of side projects (many of which are resume enhancing). At least in my environment, certifications just don't bring enough to the party in terms of improving my career options to justify the amount of time that they take to achieve. When it comes time to look for a new gig, my searches have always comes down to the interview and whether or not I have actual job experience with the little bits of technology that a client needs at the moment. For the most part, what I see on the streets is that employers (at least in my neck of the woods) don't put a lot of stock in certification programs, Microsoft or otherwise. And everyone who's done any hiring knows that people fresh out of college with no practical experience beyond a BSCS are going to have to be shown most everything in the beginning. Employers are looking for experience in the real world.
Frankly I must say, with no disrespect towards the many excellent programmers I've known who also have degrees & certs, that I can understand the employer's point of view. I have worked with many programmers who had a vast collection of certifications on their resume and in the end, not to be unkind, they couldn't find their posterior with both hands and a flashlight. A clueless programmer with a certificate is still a clueless programmer (and make no mistake, clueless programmers can still pass the cert exams - I've met them). The same applies to college degrees. I've seen people with more degrees on their resume than the you could shake a stick at. These were highly, highly educated individuals who were clearly much more intelligent than my little uneducated self, and yet they were an absolute disaster to the projects they were on. Couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. In fact (I wish now I had printed it out), one of the most convoluted functions I've ever seen was from someone who had both a gazillion degrees and certifications. It was about 20 lines of C++ where literally every line (not counting the curly braces) was incorrect, in sometimes bizarre ways. And it was all to replace atol(), which he didn't even know existed. And yet, on paper, this guy was an absolute stud.
Make no mistake here, my point is not to show disrespect towards those capable and qualified programmers who have degrees and / or certifications. Rather, it's to point out that nothing takes the place of practical experience, and employers know this. I frequently have people come to me and express a desire to become a programmer, asking where they should start, which college courses, certification programs, etc. My response is probably unprofessional and unconventional, but I tell them to save that money and spend it instead on books and a compiler. You'll get up to speed and get a job in a much, much shorter time frame, you'll spend more time actually coding, and frankly, if they have to go back to college every time they need to learn a new technology or API, they're toast in this business anyway. Things change too quickly. You have to be able to pick it up on your own.
Mind you, all of this must be taken in the context of where I live, the US. I have friends from India who have told me that the job market is so tight there you can hardly get a job flipping burgers without at least a BS. And I have no experience in other countries, either. So above all, it's a matter of doing what's practical for your own environment. In the US, however, those who spend their nights lit by the glow of a monitor as they bang out code are able to compete favorable in the market with their degreed and certified brethren.
While I'm sure that there's tons of people here with a long educational pedigree, I suspect that there are also quite a few who got into this business with no formal education whatsoever and have successful careers that came from nothing more than late nights with a compiler. We're extremely fortunate that we can get away with that in this business. You'll never be able to get a gig as a lawyer or accountant like that...
Chistopher Duncan
Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
A clueless programmer with a certificate is still a clueless programmer (and make no mistake, clueless programmers can still pass the cert exams - I've met them).
Clueless people are a fact of life and somehow they get degrees and certifications. I'd also say a lot of clueless people have don't have degress or certifications. Unfortunately the certification exams aren't foolproof and it is fairly easy to cheat. But it will catch up to them someday when they go in for a technical interview and the hiring manager decides to bring in a few members of the team to ask some questions...
I'm also in the US and got my start in an unconventional manner, but I think here is where we start to differ. I've only been a professional developer for about 3 years now so as far as salary, I'm still on my way up. I also work in a corporate environment as opposed to consulting. While my immediate supervisor does not put a lot of weight into certifications, he does put weight into learning new skills and becoming better at the skills you already have. So when its time for performance reviews my supervisor knows where I'm coming from and understands the situation, but what reason does he give his supervisor on why he is asking for X amount of dollars for Andy's review? Instead of saying "Andy done real good at learning the SQL Server! Give him more money!" he can say "Andy has the MCDBA certification, and that means he knows SQL Server.". Our reviews aren't based solely on certs, but the more ammunition, the better. And on one hand I could have learned SQL Server inside and out, not gotten certified, jumped to a new job and that would have definately affected my marketable skills and in turn affect salary. But I'm happy with my current job, and if certification helps my boss tell his boss that I'm worth it, then I'm all for it.
Certifications don't make me better than anyone, but the amount of effort I put into doing what I love does.
Andy Gaskell, MCSD MCDBA
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Well said, and a good point. When I was a regular prior to my merc days, I changed jobs about once a year, and bumped my salary a minimum of 10k each time. You can't get those kinds of raises at the same job, but we spend so much of our time at the office, when you find a great job, why look for another one?
At that point, anything that helps bump the salary is a good thing. Plus, of course, learning is always fun...
Chistopher Duncan
Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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The test may retire at some point (probably within a couple years), but you'll never lose your status as an MCP. For a sample of the testing format, check out a demo at www.transcender.com. For more information on the VC++ Desktop exam check here: http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/exams/70-016.asp
I've heard that MS is developing VC++ versions of the .NET exams, but they seem to be taking a back seat to the VB and C# exams.
Andy Gaskell, MCSD MCDBA
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Ok... let´s start a real discussion here.
I remember that I´ve spended a fortune with my MCSD certification. Now MS lauched the new VS and I need to do all the MCSD stuff again. Wouldn´t be fair if they have an UPGRADE certification, like they created for Windows 2000 ? They could at least give us a discount on the tests or something... I´ll have to spend a fortune again... 
Mauricio Ritter - Brazil
Sonorking now: 100.13560 Trank
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I am surprised that you actually think you would do yourself good by getting a new certification, Mauricio. Just show them that game you created and also show them the new racing game. In my opinion, that alone should give anybody with any sense a pretty good idea of your programming skills.
Buster
Nish was here, now Nish has gone;
He left his soul, to turn you on;
Those who knew Nish, knew him well;
Those who didn't, can go to hell.
I like to ![Jig | [Dance]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/jig.gif) on the Code Project
Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
www.busterboy.org
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Nish [BusterBoy] wrote:
Just show them that game you created and also show them the new racing game.
The problem is that I can´t submit my games with my resume. I really don´t think they would be usefull if I send my resume applying to a datawarehouse/database job or a web development one (this thingys give some good money sometimes). I hope that someday I create games fulltime and stop working with things I don´t like much.
Nish [BusterBoy] wrote:
In my opinion, that alone should give anybody with any sense a pretty good idea of your programming skills.
I would like if things works that way, but here a certification means a lot (some companies pay more if you have a certification). I´ve another problem... I´m instructor in a MS ATEC, so I need the cert to minister the courses. 
Mauricio Ritter - Brazil
Sonorking now: 100.13560 Trank
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Hi, where can I found that game ?
Thanks,
Andres Manggini.
Buenos Aires - Argentina.
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Thanks, looks great.
do you know where can I found the race game ?
Andres Manggini.
Buenos Aires - Argentina.
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Andres Manggini wrote:
do you know where can I found the race game ?
When I talked with the author last night said its only half done right now; hopefully he'll get the other half finished soon 
James
Sonork ID: 100.11138 - Hasaki
"My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT.
I may make you feel but I can't make you think." - Thick as a Brick, Jethro Tull 1972
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James T. Johnson wrote:
When I talked with the author last night said its only half done right now; hopefully he'll get the other half finished soon
Yippppeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Go Mauritio, go!
Nish [not logged in]
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Hum ... Mauricio, You don't need to upgrade the certification if you have a VB/VC6++ version, microsoft changed their terms of certification
You don't need the MCSD.NET certification for nothing , unless you are trying to showoff your skills to apply to a new job ...
In the past i was a MCSD with VB5 and sql 6.5 , then i lost it  , but my actual company pays me the exams... eh eh , so i taked and passed the designing and implementing ... sql2000 and the 2 VC6++ exams and i'll take the 70-100 shortly, i think ... i waiting since the beginning of February to take the bloody exam .
A note, you don't need to pay a fortune for the certification  , you only need to pay the exams if your company doesn't support it. Exists a
established way of passing MS Certification exams , called Braindumps , making many dumb and stupid guys earn something more money than the competent ones , make the MCSD a bad joke ...
I studied very hard to pass the exams and i have 3 years of professional experience programming VB/VC++(including MFC, COM and ATL), i don't like a kid of 13 years to take all 4 exams with high marks(real case) , only because he did known the questions and the answers ...
I can't give you the link for this sites(they're well know, i think), but if you search the WEB with the MCSD and Braindump , you will find these teasers.
If you have already have the VB/VC6++ exams , then the lamer thing to do is waiting on this sites to the Q & A on last trimester of 2002 ,since the exams will enter beta in April/May ...
Why don't you show off your games , i think it's pretty good publicity ,
Não te preocupes muito com a certificação, mostra os teus conhecimentos técnicos, que as pessoas vão reconhecer o teu trabalho, não é por causa de um papel que te vão rejeitar.
Nota: Em Portugal, onde trabalho, a certificação em MCSD não te dá praticamente vantagem nenhuma a não ser que tenhas mais de um 1/2 anos de experiencia professional, e mesmo assim ... , e ah ajuda sim à empresa que te contrata para ficar Microsoft Certified Partner, sem benficios nenhuns para ti 
Um abraço e continua a fornecer jogos para este site espectacular 
Joao Vaz
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Joao Vaz wrote:
A note, you don't need to pay a fortune for the certification , you only need to pay the exams if your company doesn't support it.
I work for 3 companys an none of them pay my exams At least one of them gimme a 10% discount (the ATEC). 
Joao Vaz wrote:
Não te preocupes muito com a certificação, mostra os teus conhecimentos técnicos, que as pessoas vão reconhecer o teu trabalho, não é por causa de um papel que te vão rejeitar.
Nota: Em Portugal, onde trabalho, a certificação em MCSD não te dá praticamente vantagem nenhuma a não ser que tenhas mais de um 1/2 anos de experiencia professional, e mesmo assim ... , e ah ajuda sim à empresa que te contrata para ficar Microsoft Certified Partner, sem benficios nenhuns para ti
Um abraço e continua a fornecer jogos para este site espectacular
Aha ! A Portuguese Colonizer ! Cool !
Mauricio Ritter - Brazil
Sonorking now: 100.13560 Trank
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Mauricio Ritter wrote:
A Portuguese Colonizer !
Culpado
Precisas mesmo de ter a certificação ? Se precisas digo-te que tanto o
MCSD e o MCSD são fáceis de tirar -> tenho um amigo meu(MCSE Windows 2000 track) que entrou na
Microsoft portuguesa e ficou lá por causa disto:
www.braindumpcentral.com e disto
www.mcsebraindumps.com
Ambos os sites têm digamos questões parecidas com os exames MCSD e MCSE. Ele não comprou livro nenhum nem testes nenhuns nem tem grau universitário,desitistiu no 1ª ano e estudou sempre na véspera do exame ...
Tu devias procurar algo te realizasse profissionalmente e partir à luta ...,
eu por exemplo adoro c++ (na área de sistemas distribuidos), é aquilo me faz ter gozo realmente em programar, e neste momento estou à 4 meses num projecto de 6 meses em TCL(linguagem script tipo perl), javascript e html e mal posso esperar que a minha empresa me mande de volta ao meu c++, já tou a desesperar, se não me enviarem para outro projecto que tenha c++, nem que seja em unix , vou-me embora e procurar um emprego que me dê realmente gozo Yack! Yack!
Não te amoleças rapaz e luta pelos teus gostos !
Um abraço do portuga ,
Joao Vaz
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Actually, while learning is always a Good Thing, there might be a point of diminishing returns with certifications, etc. Admittedly, living in the US I'm ignorant of the job market realities in Brazil, but here in the States I've found that the primary thing employers care about are, "Do you know what you're doing with this technology, and can you meet the deadlines?". I have no college, no certifications (and probably a serious lack of common sense), but I haven't missed a meal in 12 years of working in this biz.
I think the comments about your games were well said. I do in fact put personal projects on my resume if they demonstrate experience with a technology. Of course, I also have a Far Side cartoon at the bottom of my resume. They may love me or they may hate me, but they always remember I was there...
In any event, most programmers excel in the technical, but never spend near as much time learning the skills that they need to navigate the corporate world and market themselves. It may not be right and it may not be fair, but more often than not the person who gets the job is not necessarily the most technically adept, but the one who knew how to play the game.
"But I'm a programmer - I shouldn't have to deal with marketing and politics!" True enough, I suppose, but irrelevant just the same. This is the business world. Logic doesn't apply.
Chistopher Duncan
Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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You shouldn't have worry about this for some time.
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/mcad/compare.asp
According to this page there will be two levels of cert, MCAD and MCSD, but the exams are not scheduled to be released until June 2002, one isn't available until February 2003.
I'm looking forward to renewing my cert, I have found it a good way to learn the new technologies and tools. I have also personally found it to be of benefit for job searching. I have gotten at least two contracts because of it. I had an interview last week where I noticed the person had that part of my resume highlighted and said that they were looking for someone with MCSD.
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Guys
This was my idea. Yesterday when someone in the lounge asked about some MCSD stuff, I stated that it would be nice to have a forum just for this.
Chris M, I demand to be recognized for my idea
Nish
Nish was here, now Nish has gone;
He left his soul, to turn you on;
Those who knew Nish, knew him well;
Those who didn't, can go to hell.
I like to on the Code Project
Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
www.busterboy.org
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I personally recognize that you were the first to state that a forum for this topic should be made.
- Matt Newman
-Sonork ID: 100.11179:BestSnowman
Frankly AOL should stick to what it does best: Fooling millions of americans into believing that it, AOL, is the web. -Paul Watson
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Matt Newman wrote:
I personally recognize that you were the first to state that a forum for this topic should be made.
Matt, I am glad that at least you had the candor and grit to stand by me and give me the acknowledgment long due.
Nish
CPUA # 0x0666
Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain
www.busterboy.org
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Nish
are u still in Trivandrum ? or moved to US ?
..just wondering...
redindian
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Nish
are u still in Trivandrum ? or moved to US ?
..just wondering...
redindian
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Per his Web site, he has returned from Trivandrum.
http://voidnish.com/NishBio.aspx
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow
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