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iamstarbuck wrote: I think I'm having a hard time getting through to people who don't code for a living. They aren't exposed to the realities of software development like programmers are on a daily basis.
I don't want to discuss this endlessly either, however I cannot leave that uncommented. As I understand Dan is someone who codes for a living and TDL was only a side project he did for fun and because he uses TDL himself. I myself code for a living and in my little spare time also work on FOSS for fun (not with VisualC++ because that is not fun for me - but Gunhouse is right, maybe for other people it can still be fun). Let me quote Dan Pink's talk in that video I linked to again, where he is talking about the people working on free stuff like TDL, saying they are people
"who have jobs, they're working at jobs for pay, doing sophisticated, technically challenging work, and yet, during their limited disgressionary time, they do equally - if not more - technically sophisticated work, not for their employer, but for someone else for free."
The motivation behind this is actually, as Pink explains, "Challenge" and "Mastery" along with "Making a Contribution". All of this applies to TDL (and what a great contribution it is!) and I'm pretty sure that's also what motivated Dan to work on TDL. And btw, it's also what this website, The CodeProject, is all about: "To learn, to teach and to have fun programming".
All I want to say is there are different solutions for not letting this project die: Find somebody who makes a commercial product out of it, as you suggest, or find somebody (or a bunch of people) who continue the work in the same spirit of a side project because it's fun. *Both* sound fine for me and seem to be possible according to TDL's software license.
But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author. I guess he's currently just having some RL issues and I would rather give him some more time to come back and either continue the work as a side project or a commercial project now if that's the problem, or properly hand it over to somebody, or make it a more open team project. The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry. I think it was our fault that we didn't discuss these things with Dan when he was around in the forum, but concentrated only on bugs or missing features.
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citorix wrote: But it still worries me somewhat that we are discussing this in the absence of the original author.
citorix wrote: The current TDL version is working quite well for the time being, so I don't see a reason to hurry.
Exactly !
I don't understand this discussion ... the last beta version works perfectly for me (and I cannot find a post of anyone else that reports a serious bug).
I will not not give up on TDL, regardless if it is further developed/supported or not. I have tried *many* other Task Manager software, including My LIFE ORGANIZED (I am a registered buyer). To make it short: nothing comes even close to TDL.
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We're almost entirely in agreement.
The difference is that you're focusing on what developers do for fun vs profit. I don't care. I don't want TDL to die so I'm being proactive about encouraging people who value this project to help get someone to work on it.
Finally (we all hope), the time we wait for Dan to come back is purely subjective. I've seen projects die when interest wanes and part of what sparked my call to action was discussion of ' Plan "B" '. When that discussion starts, the project is on it's way out. We all hope Dan comes back. If he doesn't we need someone to help. If he does, he'll have someone to help. There is no losing proposition here by seeking help.
Thanks for a lively discussion.
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Gunhouse wrote: The real problem is time, with work, a pager (lot of pager) and family, I ran out of time.
Ok, I do not want to sound like everybody has a job that allows him or her to do side projects. There are times in life and there are jobs that do not allow you to enjoy this kind of "luxury". And unfortunately, in these times of economical crisis etc. it seems to become even worse. Nowadays it seems to be the norm that people either have no job at all or they have a job that demands all of their time. But still I think one should seek a job that gives you some room for hobbies besides family and work in the long run, even if it's not payed that well.
And yes, open source projects can die. But so can commercial products.
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I should let this go...
When someone makes statements like you just did, people go away thinking "yeah, programmers should give themselves more fulfilling lives away from their desks, and that means enriching themselves with more time with their families, and by working on my free software for me, so I guess I don't really need to help find a C++ programmer..." The phrase "let them eat cake" comes to mind.
Please don't give people an excuse. Yes, free time is a luxury that many of us don't have - as you said, particularly because of this economy.
Please stop coming up with all encompassing generalities about why people should find it in their hearts to find this project on their own and work on it.
Please simply put it in your ToDoList to find someone to work on this project (with or without Dan), and let them decide how much time they have and what will motivate them. The reality is that there will probably be several people involved in this.
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Since a lot of good thoughts on this subject were exchanged we can assume that the most important things have been said for the time being.
If you (=iamstarbuck) really want to save the day for TDL as your telling us and if you think it's time to do something I suggest you stop challenging us to do something and start doing something instead.
I do not want to nitpick but it doesn't help just to proclaim that it is important to do this and that and that someone has to do it.
And it doesn't help to tell everybody that it can't be you because you are a developer, "but not C++ but C# (way different) and too overloaded" yourself "to pickup yet another FOSS project".
I mean that's o.k. but then you could do something else e.g. follow your own advice and start looking for a C++ developer (maybe you've done that already but then you didn't tell us about it and frankly your messages do not sound like it...).
I haven't changed my mind about this idea: The idea of taking over from Dan comes far too early for my taste as I already explained here[^].
I suggest that you start working on an answer to the question you asked: "is there any way to find out how Dan is?". This would be a good first step ...
How about getting in touch with the guy who runs The Code Project. The name is: Chris Maunder.
Maybe he knows something. You could send him an email. You might want to start your efforts here: http://www.codeproject.com/Members/Chris-Maunder[^]
or here http://www.codeproject.com/Members/David-Cunningham[^]
Be a shining example ... and get the ball rolling
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Your response exemplifies the "let someone else do it" mindset. I'm trying to get people to think and act more proactively and with better long-term results. I think I've already provided a shining example of how to keep valuable software from dying - I've provided a definition of a common problem which people may not recognize, and I've documented a solution. It's a lesson that can be applied to any project. Consider yourself educated in fishing, but I will not toss you a fish here. I already support other projects and I have a business to run, and I feel I have done my part for this project by planting this seed.
If people like TDL, they now know what can (and arguably should) be done. Any of a hundred people or more can pick up the ball here without knowing anything about code. If there isn't enough appreciation for TDL, it will die like many others. C'est la vie. I'm just hoping that a couple months from now there won't be moaning about what can be done or laments about how no one did anything.
In the end, we can think of this as a form of techno-Darwinism, where well supported and appreciated projects will live on, abandoned projects simply deserve to die to make room for others, and the people who don't take an active part in their own best interests deserve to waste their time looking endlessly for better software. Don't believe in evolution? You're looking at it.
I think I've said enough. Thanks for your time.
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There maybe other reasons TDL did not attract other C++ Programmer and that is it looks like TDL is written using Visual C++ version 6.0. To work together as a team all member should be working with the same development enviroment. I have version 6.0 but I only have Visual C++ 2005 and 2008 loaded on my computer. I tried doing the multi-version thing on a Sourceforge project and half the work I did was converting to and from version 6 and 2005! Not Fun!
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If my status dropdown list has the entries "Waiting For Customer Evaluation" and "Waiting For Customer" (in that order) then the second option can never be selected. TDL always selects the first one. Even if I type in "Waiting For Customer" I still get "Waiting For Customer Evaluation". It would appear you are doing a findstring operation rather than a findstringexact. I am using 6.1.b1(beta).
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I had the same problem when I had two status entries beginning with the same words (seperated by space) but ending in a different way. When I started to work with a lot of columns I solved this problem by using abbreviations. Regarding your status entries I suggest @WfC-E (or @WfCE) and @WfC but it would be better to have completely different names like @WFAE (Waiting For Account Evaluation) and @WFC.
Problems like this were the reason for me to ask Dan to implement more category fields. Then you could have one cat. with @WF (wating for) and another like "@CE (Customers Evalution) and therefore you don't need things like "waiting for customer", "waiting for my colleague Peter", "waiting for component supplier" and so on because @WF would fit for everyone. And the next cat. would tell you what @WF aims at: @CustE, @CollP (or simple: peter), @CompS (or @CoS)... Maybe you can do that by using the fields category and status (if you don't use the cat. column at the moment for something else).
BTW: How do you manage to live with status names as long as yours?
I mean with all the columns on my screen (Category, Completed Date, Completed Status, Creation Date, Dependency, Due Date, File Link, Flag, Priority, Recurrence, Reminder, Start Date, Status, Task ID) I'm in danger that there is not enough space left for the column "title" (the whole task name) not to speak of the comments field (on the right hand side) if I'm using another column or give the status or the category of a task a longer name as a name with max. 5 characters or (which is a problem even though I'm using short names)assigning more than one category to a task. I'm working with a 21" screen and using the font size (pont size) 8. How do you do that?
Thank you very much for your anwer in advance.
Cheers,
Jochen
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Simple. I don't use as many columns as you. I have Priority, % Complete, Estimated time, Date Due, Allocated to, status, category and title. Completion date is not that relevant as I archive off completed tasks. Creation date is not relevant to me. It's just important that I complete the task and that I know what is holding me up. I don't used dependancy. I tend to build dependancy into the tree structure instead. I don't use task ID. Don't need to reference it. I don't tend to use category much. Again I add nodes to the tree. For example I used to have categories of "Hardware" and "Software". I now have "Hardware" and "Software" nodes hanging off the main project node. I don't used date due much, because everything is always due ASAP! Don't use reminders. We have a separate diary program that does a better job. Don't use recurrances, again the diary program does that for us. Never used file links. I know where to find the documentation. Don't display comments next to title. Instead I have comment window open all the time. Don't use flag field. Tend to use text colour to highlight tasks.
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I have been a long-term user of ToDoList, and it has met my needs very well. I'm sure that like many other in this forum, we stray from time to time and look at Swift ToDo List, task management in Outlook, InfoSelect, Essential PIM, and the host of other todo/PIM solutions out there. I do, but generally return to what is one of the best, if not the best solution for task management available.
However, due to Dan's continuing absence, I have wondered about the sustainability of ToDoList as a solution. I NEED a robust todo solution going forward. What if it will not run under the next M$ operating system? What about future enhancements? I am not planning to delve into the code and make any changes myself. I know some of you can.
After a review of a range of potential ToDoList alternatives, I believe MyLifeOrganized is in many ways the closest alternative. It is not open source, and it is not free. It has a light footprint, runs from a USB key, and is very reminiscent of Dan's software. In a number of interesting ways it is superior, but the functionality and price of Dan's ToDoList software has kept me using it for a long time.
Finally, and with a regret or two, I did pay my money and change over to MyLifeOrganized. It was easy to convert across, given the great export options within ToDoList. My primary concern is on-going support. MyLifeOrganized looks like it is also a great piece of software, while having much of the functionality of Dan's code.
I would be interested what others think about a way forward. I think I have made the right decision for me.
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Interessting post, Kim!
I used MLO some month before discovering TDL. I liked it but was happy after i switched to TDL. The complex calculation of importance and due values just did not suit my needs. I just push my tasks manually which wasn´t possible in MLO.
I still love TDL and will continue to use it. Due to the keyboardorientated design i programmed a lot of macros with an external software. I have now buttons for:
- defering tasks for a day or by X lines (lower).
- moving the selected task to the current mouse positon.
- assigning specific icons.
- calling up different Show-parameter sets (Views).
and 100s others.
This way no Do-List fits better for me.
But that TDL has become a dead end product worries me too. It´s amazing how far this freeware developed. If Dan would decide to turn this into shareware i would not hesitate to register.
If anybody could continue Dans work that would be great. I donated twice and would do it again if that helps. Others may think similar.
It would be a shame if the story ends here.
Alexandra
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Alexxcode wrote: I used MLO some month before discovering TDL. I liked it but was happy after i switched to TDL. The complex calculation of importance and due values just did not suit my needs. I just push my tasks manually which wasn´t possible in MLO.
I've used/trialled MLO twice. I really liked it in a lot of ways (especially the PPC sync) BUT, as you point out with the 'complex calculation', there's a lot of peculiar, untweakable GTD derived stuff that just didn't suit me at all. AND it doesn't have more than a small fraction of the power of TDL. In many ways it looks nicer, but there's so much power and usability in the TDL screen & UI that MLO doesn't have. I actually see MLO & TDL as being at opposite ends of the tasklist spectrum.
Alexxcode wrote:
But that TDL has become a dead end product worries me too. It´s amazing how far this freeware developed. If Dan would decide to turn this into shareware i would not hesitate to register.
I'm not sure how much this bothers me. I use lots of software which suddenly and unexpectedly stopped development and support. After a number of years they are still often the programs that suit me best & have no problems with W7 64bit. I keep looking, but I see no realistic alternative to TDL with equivalent functionality. I've seen this happen with single developer programs, small & large company programs, free and commercial programs. There's also quite a few programs I really liked where development & support has continued, but they have changed in ways that don't suit me so well or something I like better has come along.
I'd really like Dan to be around, but I can see myself using TDL for many years whether he is or not. It's a really great program as it is.
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akaDormouse wrote:
I'd really like Dan to be around, but I can see myself using TDL for many years whether he is or not. It's a really great program as it is.
I agree, but when i remember how fast TDL developed when Dan still was around i really miss that power/progress. Help me out here. Is TDL Open Source? Is it theoratically possible somybody can resume Dans work? Is the code open to everyone and can one comprehend it?
Alexandra
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Dan always made the source available (see top of page) and I'm pretty sure that he has referred to it as Open Source (iirc).
So open to everyone, yes.
Can one comprehend it? Me one wouldn't even try. You one might well.
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akaDormouse wrote:
Can one comprehend it? Me one wouldn't even try. You one might well.
Thanks, but i may be good in coding macros with an external software but unfortunately can´t speak any C+(+) VB or whatever languages so far.
So guy´s who is willing/able to contribute and try walking in Dan´s footsteps? I am sure there will be no lack of feature requests in the future.
Alexandra
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akaDormouse wrote: I'd really like Dan to be around, but I can see myself using TDL for many years whether he is or not. It's a really great program as it is.
Same here... I still hit this site at least once a week to see if he has came back...
There are other Task Managers / Organizers around (some shareware and some free like TaskCoach), but I still like TDL the best.
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Alexandra,
would you mind sharing some/any/all of these macros?
H
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Do you use Macro Express also?
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No.
I assumed you would use AutoHotkey or AutoIt. Do not ask why I assumed it, I do not know...
I use AutoHotKey (not an expert) but it can give me some ideas. The keyboard based macros should be a breeze to "translate". Not sure if I will get time to get to the translation though, so it's ok.
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Macro Express is much more powerful. www.macroexpress.com has a 30 day trial period.
Alexandra
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Hi Kim,
I do not think we have a reason to start getting nervous right now. TDL runs also under Win7 and that's reassuring for the moment and for the foreseeable future.
But at long sight I agree with you! TDL is IMHO one of the best solutions for task management available.
I NEED a robust todo solution going forward and my primary concern is an on-going support and further developement, too.
I startet looking at MyLifeOrganized (a friend of mine is using it) and tried to convert my lists from TDL to MyLifeOrganized. It worked but with one big disadvantage: The comments are always lost and I NEED these definitely!
Could you tell me how you converted your list(s) without losing the comments, please?
Thank you very much in advance.
Cheers,
Jochen
P.S. The alternative (MyLifeOrganized) is in a way only a workaround, too. Despite the advantages they offer there are big disadvantages, too, e.g. you can only open one ToDoList at the same time not 5,6,7, which I consider very helpful since e.g. I'm using one TDL-list to start programms (I cleaned my desktop of a myriad of links [looking like a wallpaper itself], having a nice wallpaper instead)and other lists for other purposes (not to-dos).
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Hello Jochen,
I agree that even unsupported, TDL can be a good option for a long time for the majority of users. However, I am not comfortable with something as important as my own task list without the ability to access on-going development and support by the author. I use the task list for both work and personal to do items, and it is a mission-critical application for me, right up there with GNUcash and TheBat!. This is really a decision for each of us, and depends on our own personal risk appetite. But there is certainly no reason for most users to rush off to find other alternatives just yet. I like to think Dan is just off having a well earned break somewhere.
Anyway, to address your questions:
MLO allows multiple instances. There is a tickbox under TOOLS\OPTIONS.
I simply used the TDL export as an MLO file option to get my data out of TDL. However, it is not a perfect export, simply giving you the to do list tasks and indented structure. I then edited the new MLO file to add dates and notes, basically with some cut and paste. If you have a lot of notes, this could be very tedious. I did not attempt XML export/import between the two applications, although this may have produced a more complete transfer of the data file. For me, Dan's MLO export option was sufficient to preserve my extensive TDL data structure, which was my biggest concern.
I am going to stick with MLO, as I am growing to like it very much. This is not the right forum to pump up MLO's features, so I will leave it at that. TDL has also been a fantastic tool for me in the past, and I give it some credit for my job promotions over recent years. Unfortunately, for me it was time to change. I am not comfortable with the risk.
Good luck,
Kim
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