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BillWoodruff wrote: they ceased any regular participation in QA because of the negative behavior encountered there.
I help out in QA because I want to help others. Other's behaviors do not make me want to stop helping people.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Other's behaviors do not make me want to stop helping people.
And, I respect the quality of your QA posts greatly !
While I try to not let others' behavior affect me, when I see unnecessary ad hominem assault on people it does bother me. I think about all the patient people who, over the years, have mentored me, and shared their knowledge generously with me, in spite of my confusion, or my inept questions.
I don't want to participate in an environment where egregious insult is common.
cheers, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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BillWoodruff wrote: ad hominem assault on people it does bother me.
I agree.
I've actually chatted with you know who in QA and it is my opinion that he does have good intentions but I think the language barrier and cultural issues get in the way. But before I chatted with him I also felt he was quite rude so it is very understandable that most people feel that way.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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If you're talking about who I think you are, then I have similar experience: if you try and answer in a polite, factual way, you get polite, factual, and very insightful answers.
My impression is that he really wants to help, not go out to insult people. However, his experience and qualification as a programmer clearly exceeds his ability to lower his level of thinking to that of newcomers, especially those from a different culture.
That said, I agree with him that most questions need to be more concise, and newcomers need to be told just that. Putting together the individual hints to the actual problem from a rather random selection of thoughts put down in a bad imitation of english can be a very hard and time-consuming task. When I do take the time to try and help someone, I often feel more like a detective than a programmer! And the detective-part is taking way too much time for my liking...
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I've seen that too. For me, I'm always reluctant to post a question because of that exact reason. Same goes for answering. I've had the situation where I answered the question, the person in question realized he should put more detail and does so and my answer is downvoted later on because it doesn't "answer" the OP's (new) question.
I'll not claim to never make a mistake in answering, but at least I try to be helpful.
I'm always curious why everyone is against "homework" questions though. I don't really care as long as that person proves he put in some work already to get it done (has done his/her own research), which many of "professional" people don't do either 
Don't give up on answering QA's in a descent manner, if the one's giving the good (behavioral) examples disappear, who knows what will happen  .
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V. wrote: I don't really care as long as that person proves he put in some work already to get it done (has done his/her own research), which many of "professional" people don't do either
I guess the issue is that almost all "homework" questions show precisely zero effort; it's quite rare to find a homework question where the OP has got most of the way there, and is just stuck on part of the solution.
But when they have put some effort in, there's no excuse for down-voting or posting demeaning comments just because it's "homework".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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V. wrote: why everyone is against "homework" questions though. I don't really care as long as that person proves he put in some work already
I've never answered Q&A here but did on other forums for far too long so I know that the number of people who have genuinely tried to create a solution and failed is minimal at best. My main reason for not helping with homework however is that ultimately it does not aid the learner in the long run. The teacher will be presented with a complete solution with no explanation of how it was come by and therefore no knowledge of the student's weaknesses or misunderstanding. The student will tick this off as another task completed and is very unlikely to care whether any real understanding of the points at issue has been gained. It is therefore right to see getting homework answers as cheating but it is ultimately students cheating themselves.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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But all of those points could just as easily apply to non-homework "no effort" questions. If someone is being paid to write code but doesn't know how to solve a basic problem, writing their code for them will not aid them in the long run. If they take your code and present it to their project manager as their own work, the PM has no knowledge of their weaknesses. The PM will keep assigning tasks, and the employee will keep expecting other people to do the work for them.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Homework is supposed to be just that - and assuming the instructor isn't trying to be an ass, the learning is in the struggle.
So - when I see a question that says "do my homework for me" I usually bypass it - it's usually addressed already, anyway. On the other hand, if they seem to be work and have just gotten stuck on something then I prefer to give the a nudge or even a push in the right direction so that they can get the answer but still learn it.
There are certainly nuances to this. And, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are some that seem to scream out "Do My Work For Me So I Get Paid For Your Efforts". Definitely a bypass.
Q&A - if it's really done right - is a forum for teaching and not just answering. That's the good stuff - especially when they recognize what you've done is lasting.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I quite agree. I don't answer Q&A's much myself either, partly because of the fact that you can provide an answer that is 100% correct, but if the OP can't see that or get it to work, then your answer is marked as wrong. And I don't like newcomers telling me that I'm wrong, when I know that I'm not... 
But also, there is as you mention a general negative and rude attitude in Q&A. To be honest, I don't think the example you posted was as very good example. It was much nicer than normal, even for Volde... He who must not be named! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 13-May-16 7:56am.
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I'm with you on this one. I had a run in with He who must not be named the other day Could someone help me simplify some lines[^] when he said part of my solution was "potentially incorrect" but didn't have the good grace to tell me which bit until a fair bit of to-and-fro commenting (which of cause garners rep points).
I did chuckle though - I'd made a mistake in the wording (not the code, it wasn't mine) and was criticised by the master of incomprehensible commenting 
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Totally agree Bill,
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist!
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As soon as I clicked the link and started reading I thought I was at StackOverflow, it was after I reread that I realised it was here. 
Yes I agree that we can do better, not that I really help out at QA but that's mostly because I'm on the demand and not supply side of things.
I dislike visiting SO because I feel like I don't get anything out from it. Here I've gotten help and comments which have helped rephrase my problem so it can be better understood and help myself to better understand what it's I'm asking about.
Even if someone asks about homework you shouldn't be an *** about it but either ignore, point out that we shouldn't do someone's homework or help them help themself.
a thriving helpful QA is important in so many ways, it can help you avoid reinventing the wheel and become better. Find help to a tricky problem as well as give new inputs and I have a long-term goal of being able to become good enough to give back because that's a sign that I've progressed.
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Member 11683251 wrote: Here I've gotten help and comments which have helped rephrase my problem so it can be better understood and help myself to better understand what it's I'm asking about.
I think you've hit the head on the nail here. Mostly, people have a problem they don't know what to do about, hence they don't know what they should ask about.
Hence, the smartasses will say that they are stupid - instead of helping them understand the problem. It's a vicious circle, because if you don't get help in understanding where the problems lie, you won't know how to ask a better question either.
Homeworkers, however, ought to know more about what they're asking about, because hopefully, they will have had SOME education on the subject in class. So homework questions are ALWAYS stupid. If you had listened to your teacher instead of Facebooking, you'd know what the answer was...
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 13-May-16 9:13am.
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That's why I don't post questions. Each and every time instead of an answer there are people criticizing what you did or telling that what you're trying to achieve is wrong - even when given the circumstances is actually reasonable, at least more than rewriting the entire code base of the company.
I don't answer often because many questions are simply requests for solutions - I have no time to spare on that, if I want to code I'd be doing it instead of procastrinating on CP - or are outside my sphere of competence. Also by the time one finish writing the answer often the question ends up deleted.
And yes, I too noticed the terrible sociopatic attitude of some members.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
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den2k88 wrote: Each and every time instead of an answer there are people criticizing what you did or telling that what you're trying to achieve is wrong - even when given the circumstances is actually reasonable, at least more than rewriting the entire code base of the company.
That really irritates me. If they can't help you with the problem as the situation is, they should just let somebody else answer. As you say, you may very well HAVE to do stuff a certain way because of how the system is build before you got at it. Refactoring is not always a good idea because is can waste company and/or client money and/or time.
I have asked specific questions on occasion, and people will come up with a lot of complicated ways of solving them that are not realistic. But when I point out that that is not what I ask for, I'll almost certainly be abused... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 13-May-16 10:11am.
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Yes, I can definitely relate to that one.
For many of us, the stuff we struggle with most is garbage that we've inherited from our predecessors. We know full well that the "big picture" answer is something along the lines of "use pattern X", "use pattern Y" or "normalise your goddamn database" but we're not about to get the go-ahead to rewrite something that's due to die in a couple of years and we really, really don't need to be reminded about how unspeakably awful the code is.
I hate having to precede questions with an explanation that borders on an apology - "I'm working on some legacy code that was written by someone who couldn't code his way out of a wet paper bag and I'd really love to be able to fix one little thing without rewriting 2 million lines of very bad code etc., etc." Even having done that, there will still be some numpty who skips straight to the code sample and blurts out "Why aren't you using MVVM, idiot?"
Whilst CP is nowhere near as bad as SO for that sort of self-righteous prickery, I do think that it's becoming more prevalent as time goes by.
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This might be a tricky path to follow but maybe...
To have some moderators who (just like in some chat forums) are able to ban abusers for some time. I do not hang around in the Q&A but I would think and hope that the bad apples are not in majority.
"Be banned for a week or two to ponder your sins."
... such stuff as dreams are made on
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I'm sure that "somebody" would get pissed off and think that Griff was only banning him because he felt his rep points were threatened... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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So what? "Somebody" may think whatever he wants. 
... such stuff as dreams are made on
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I do not think anything here could "threaten" Griff in any way: he is, after all, "original" 
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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Yeah, but right now he's got the highest rep point! Who knows how he might react if he were poked down to second place? He might throw a fit and start using all the fowlest Welsh expressions he knows? 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 13-May-16 9:23am.
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BillWoodruff wrote: Is it absurd, or totally unrealistic
No, and I speak as one who has been guilty of such misdemeanours as you describe. However, there are times when the carelessness, lack of realistic expectations and sheer stupidity of some questions pricks that part of my brain that tends to blow a fuse.
The foregoing is a reason, not an excuse (for which there is none).
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: I speak as one who has been guilty of such misdemeanours as you describe
That could be why Bill didn't include you in the respected members list... Jussaying!
[EDIT] You may have noticed that I weren't there either... [/EDIT]
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 13-May-16 9:06am.
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Come on, Johnny J., take some Windex to that crystal ball.
I did not mention such valued and respected frequent contributors to QA like Richard MacCutchan, Richard Deeming, Sasha LeFavre, Maciej Los, Afzaal Zeeshan, CHill60, Dave K., OriginalGriff, and many others ...
Because they do participate in QA. I spoke only of persons who have stopped participating in QA because of (imho) their negative experience there, and commented publicly on that.
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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