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5-Jul-23 9:41

I originally learned apple development back in 2016 bec I wanted to write my C'YaPass app as a native iOS app.
At that time you had to learn UIKit to design the User Interface. It was always so clunky with very odd interactions with the IDE (Xcode) that I just never enjoyed it.
For example to tie a click to a button you had to do this odd Command-Key / mouse thing to add an @IBAction (Interface Builder action). Ugh!

Visual C++ / Visual Studio
I always wondered why other IDEs and development systems never got to the amazing drag-n-drop type of UI design with pre-defined controls like Visual Studio??

Apple Finally Did It: They Beat Visual Studio

Well, I hadn't been kicking around on AppleDev for a while but back in 2019 they released a new way to design the UI -- and it is freakin' amazin'!! Seriously.

SwiftUI: It's The New Way
The new thing is called SwiftUI and you can build interfaces super fast and they've created a fantastically simple (AND READABLE) way to do databinding.
DataBinding Is So Elegant
It is quite elegant. Look at this simple example. You can probably understand all the code you need for this simple example which includes databinding. It's really quite amazing.

You can see the final UI here (image snapshot)[^].

Swift

struct ContentView: View {
    
    // marking a var as @State sets up the binding
    @State private var wifiEnabled = true

    @State private var userName = ""

var body: some View {

        VStack {
            Toggle(isOn: $wifiEnabled) {  // using $ binds the control to the value
              Text("Enable Wi-Fi")        // when user toggles then image (below) will be updated.
            }

            TextField("Enter user name", text: $userName)
            Text(userName) // when you type in TextField, then Text will be updated
            Image(systemName: wifiEnabled ? "wifi" : "wifi.slash")  
        }
    }
}

IDE Does Layout For You
All of the layout work is done by the IDE for you. It's amazing. You can build really nice UIs now and it is very easy.

I didn't previously like Apple Dev much at all, but Swift was a huge language improvement and now with SwiftUI UI building system it is exactly what you expected from Visual Studio all along. It's actually better than Visual Studio UI building. Amazing.

Learn SwiftUI & iOS App Dev
Here's a great book that I read to learn SwiftUI. The author, Neil Smyth, covers everything (including Swift language itself) really well. It's one of those great books you can read and actually learn to use the system.

Amazon.com: SwiftUI Essentials - iOS 16 Edition: Learn to Develop iOS Apps Using SwiftUI, Swift, and Xcode 14 eBook : Smyth, Neil: Kindle Store[^]

It all just amazes me because it takes me back to the days of learning to program Windows (3.1/95) and the fun of learning. Android Development brings that feeling a bit too, but this is even better.
Check it out. It's a lot of fun and you can build some really cool apps.

dandy725-Jul-23 9:56

dandy72

5-Jul-23 9:56

raddevus wrote:
IDE Does Layout For You
All of the layout work is done by the IDE for you

This sort of thing always raises a red flag for me.

Based on my experience - not with any Apple dev tool specifically, but dev tools in general - the instant you need something that deviates from what it's trying to get you to do, it'll fight you. Hard.

And from a company that doesn't shy away from telling its users they're doing it wrong, I shudder at the thought.

raddevus5-Jul-23 10:30

5-Jul-23 10:30

I understand being jaded about layout tools and auto-help stuff.

I understand what you mean, but in the case of a huge number of device sizes (ipads, iphones, and macs (because SwiftUI supports macOS desktop apps) it actually makes sense.

You will have to see it in action, but it is freaking amazing how it makes sure things are layed out nicely.

Also, even though it does that for you, you can tweak everything and quite easily too.

For example, check out this snapshot of code and layout from the fantastic Apple Tutorials...[^]

https://i.stack.imgur.com/Xr4hH.png[^]

Also, the Apple Tutorials for SwiftUI are amazing too, so check them out.

I'm telling you Apple has really done some amazing work on this dev ecosystem (Xcode, Swift, SwiftUI).
Really neat and makes development fun.

Member 148605856-Jul-23 4:02

Member 14860585

6-Jul-23 4:02

Definition: "user-friendly" = you have to fight it 3X harder

Graeme_Grant5-Jul-23 19:39

Graeme_Grant

5-Jul-23 19:39

raddevus wrote:
Apple Finally Did It: They Beat Visual Studio

When Apple supports multiplatform, which will be never, then I am willing to review my thoughts on this statement.

Graeme

"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee

Advanced TypeScript Programming Projects

Pete O'Hanlon6-Jul-23 4:22

Pete O'Hanlon

6-Jul-23 4:22

Oh how I wish I had 20 upvotes to give this.

BBar26-Jul-23 2:55

BBar2

6-Jul-23 2:55

I'm also a huge fan of SwiftUI. I like the fact that my UI code is no longer dependent on drags and drops, and is entirely encompassed in source code that's easily kept under source control. Now, if that debugger was as easy to use as Visual Studio's, I'd really be happy.

MSBassSinger6-Jul-23 2:58

6-Jul-23 2:58

And yet, MS goes backwards on UI builders. The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago. And after a number of years, no UI builder for the XAML-based Xamarin.Forms (now MAUI) nor HTML-based Blazor. The concept of rapid application development (RAD) at MS seems to have been lost between generations. When I asked about that with MS insiders, they were adamant that hand coding was the only way to go. It seems the script kiddies who never used a RAD UI builder just don't get the concept of spending less time on grunt work with UI code and more time making the app better.

dandy726-Jul-23 3:16

dandy72

6-Jul-23 3:16

If they didn't keep changing the underlying technology, maybe they'd be able to come up with a designer that made sense, and would provide the foundation to keep evolving it without having to constantly rewrite everything.

MSBassSinger6-Jul-23 3:24

6-Jul-23 3:24

And maybe if they hired developers and dev leads with better deductive reasoning, they could adapt functionality to changing technology. I may get roundly criticized for saying this, but MS (as many other American companies) moving to more offshore development and H1-B developers, over the years, has not been a net positive value for the company.

jschell6-Jul-23 5:56

jschell

6-Jul-23 5:56

MSBassSinger wrote:
oving to more offshore development and H1-B developers, over the years, has not been a net positive value for the company.

Versus when exactly?

I certainly remember MS producing many technologies long ago that they abandoned it what seemed like a very short time. Not to mention that the ones they have stuck with have surprising problems when one gets away from the simplistic marketing presentations that were used to promote them.

And who are you comparing them to for a different company that designs something well the first time and then sticks with it for a very long time?

raddevus6-Jul-23 5:01

6-Jul-23 5:01

MSBassSinger wrote:
And yet, MS goes backwards on UI builders.

Agree 100%!!

MSBassSinger wrote:
The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago

It's really true. Visual Studio C++ was amazing (and especially amazing for when it was released).

MSBassSinger6-Jul-23 5:16

6-Jul-23 5:16

Visual C++ got its IDE from what the VB folks created (Alan Cooper, et al).

Those IDEs were extremely productive, and at least back in 2000, MS ported the IDE design to Visual Studio .NET.

Graeme_Grant6-Jul-23 13:27

Graeme_Grant

6-Jul-23 13:27

MSBassSinger wrote:
The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago.

No major changes since then, however, hotreload is supported while live debugging a running app. So I can't see how this statement makes any sense.

MSBassSinger wrote:
no UI builder for the XAML-based Xamarin.Forms (now MAUI)

What rock are you living under? Only those who do not understand Xaml will make statements like these. VS has a live view of the layout and live editing/hot reload during debugging a running app.

MSBassSinger wrote:
HTML-based Blazor

Again, hot reload during debugging a running app. However, comparing Swift/MAUI to blazor/html is like comparing Apples to eggs. Blazor, thanks to the BlazorWebView control, I can create hybrid apps with Wpf, WinForms, MAUI, UNO, Avalon, etc, for ANY device and seamlessly cross communicate between Blazor and the host app framework. Can SwiftUI do this? I know it can't, It is a closed/walled-off framework.

Side note: There are many 3rd-party html editors out there and I hate using any of them. I will stick with VS Code for raw editing static html - I can edit with hot reload while my page is live.

MSBassSinger wrote:
RAD UI builder

This is only a very small part of the development tools required today. If you want to be walled-off into a small ecosystem and restrict and limit yourself, go for it. MS has opened up the whole device market from micro-controllers, to TVs, fridgets, to phones, tablets, to desktop and web, and to more and across operating systems, iOS, MacOS, TvOS, Linux, Android, Windows, etc. To top it off, they [Microsoft] have done it open-source!

Graeme

"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee

modified 6-Jul-23 19:34pm.

MSBassSinger6-Jul-23 14:06

6-Jul-23 14:06

Clearly you do not fully grasp the context. Maybe you just were not around when the widespread use of the WinForms designer saved a lot of UI design time and was copied by several MS competitors. And WinForms does not use hot reload. Never did. Hot reload was what MS settled on for Xamarin.Forms development when their IDE dev teams couldn't figure out how to make a UI designer. Do you get the concept that using a backhoe to dig a trench is better in both quality and reduced labor than a guy with a shovel? If so, then you should get that a UI designer saves time with the 95% to 100% of the UI coding, reducing the time it takes to create and debug it, allowing either more time on more useful work in validation, business rules, and data management, or gets the project done sooner.

"Hot reload" compared to step-through debugging that has been in the WinForms builder going back to VB6 and earlier is a joke. There is a XAML designer in Visual Studio, but it was never updated to handle the Xamarin.Forms dialect or the MAUI dialect.

Having an intelligent, well-written UI designer has nothing to do with where the code runs. As any 1st year software developer should know, if you can hand-write the code, you can generate the code.

Please name one HTML editor with drag-and-drop design functionality. I'd love to see one. So many developers who love hand coding the mundane, repeatable stuff becuase that is how they came up as "script kiddies", lacking a broader concept of SLDC costs.

Graeme_Grant6-Jul-23 15:27

Graeme_Grant

6-Jul-23 15:27

WinForms is not my thing, I only use it for articles. Xaml is far better. You are right, that 20+ yo tech still does not support hot reload, I stand corrected. The others do.

So I had a quick look at the latest Swift UI: What's New in SwiftUI - iOS 17 - WWDC 2023 - YouTube[^] ... I do this now with WPF, Avalon, ASP.Net, MAUI with hot reload... hot reload, like SwiftUI, is growing better with every release. Only difference being MS is cross plat, including iOS/MacOS. Here is the MAUI version: All things client and mobile app development with .NET MAUI - 37:11 Rapid Development with Visual Studio 2022 | BRK204 - YouTube[^] and a sample MAUI + Blazor Hybrid Case Study[^] in the same video. The power MS gives you!

MSBassSinger wrote:
Please name one HTML editor with drag-and-drop design functionality.

You don't need me to tell you, Google search spits out tonnes of examples. However, here are three links to 7 examples:
1. Introducing Webflow - YouTube[^]
2. Top 5 Webflow Alternatives for Building Web Sites | No Code website builders - YouTube[^]
3. Pinegrow 7.3 Release with Upgraded AI Assistant and Tailwind Tree Inspector - YouTube[^]

UPDATE

Forgot to mention that MS .Net 8 is bringing support for allowing Obj-C & Swift to use .Net libs and custom libraries... 😉

Graeme

"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee

modified 6-Jul-23 22:10pm.

jlongo7-Jul-23 9:37

jlongo

7-Jul-23 9:37

I know that when they designed Swift they could have just used the ECMA C# standard— and saved a ton of money on language design by using a language designed by people who know how to design a language and that is 20 years mature. I have a tiny little iOS app written in Swift. Every time I have to update it to comply with the store. I have to edit some of the code because they’re still working out the swift language.

raddevus7-Jul-23 10:00