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And yet, MS goes backwards on UI builders. The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago. And after a number of years, no UI builder for the XAML-based Xamarin.Forms (now MAUI) nor HTML-based Blazor. The concept of rapid application development (RAD) at MS seems to have been lost between generations. When I asked about that with MS insiders, they were adamant that hand coding was the only way to go. It seems the script kiddies who never used a RAD UI builder just don't get the concept of spending less time on grunt work with UI code and more time making the app better.
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If they didn't keep changing the underlying technology, maybe they'd be able to come up with a designer that made sense, and would provide the foundation to keep evolving it without having to constantly rewrite everything.
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And maybe if they hired developers and dev leads with better deductive reasoning, they could adapt functionality to changing technology. I may get roundly criticized for saying this, but MS (as many other American companies) moving to more offshore development and H1-B developers, over the years, has not been a net positive value for the company.
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MSBassSinger wrote: oving to more offshore development and H1-B developers, over the years, has not been a net positive value for the company.
Versus when exactly?
I certainly remember MS producing many technologies long ago that they abandoned it what seemed like a very short time. Not to mention that the ones they have stuck with have surprising problems when one gets away from the simplistic marketing presentations that were used to promote them.
And who are you comparing them to for a different company that designs something well the first time and then sticks with it for a very long time?
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MSBassSinger wrote: And yet, MS goes backwards on UI builders.
Agree 100%!!
MSBassSinger wrote: The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago
It's really true. Visual Studio C++ was amazing (and especially amazing for when it was released).
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Visual C++ got its IDE from what the VB folks created (Alan Cooper, et al).
Those IDEs were extremely productive, and at least back in 2000, MS ported the IDE design to Visual Studio .NET.
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MSBassSinger wrote: The current WinForms builder isn't quite as good in may ways as what they had 20+ years ago.
No major changes since then, however, hotreload is supported while live debugging a running app. So I can't see how this statement makes any sense.
MSBassSinger wrote: no UI builder for the XAML-based Xamarin.Forms (now MAUI)
What rock are you living under? Only those who do not understand Xaml will make statements like these. VS has a live view of the layout and live editing/hot reload during debugging a running app.
MSBassSinger wrote: HTML-based Blazor
Again, hot reload during debugging a running app. However, comparing Swift/MAUI to blazor/html is like comparing Apples to eggs. Blazor, thanks to the BlazorWebView control, I can create hybrid apps with Wpf, WinForms, MAUI, UNO, Avalon, etc, for ANY device and seamlessly cross communicate between Blazor and the host app framework. Can SwiftUI do this? I know it can't, It is a closed/walled-off framework.
Side note: There are many 3rd-party html editors out there and I hate using any of them. I will stick with VS Code for raw editing static html - I can edit with hot reload while my page is live.
MSBassSinger wrote: RAD UI builder
This is only a very small part of the development tools required today. If you want to be walled-off into a small ecosystem and restrict and limit yourself, go for it. MS has opened up the whole device market from micro-controllers, to TVs, fridgets, to phones, tablets, to desktop and web, and to more and across operating systems, iOS, MacOS, TvOS, Linux, Android, Windows, etc. To top it off, they [Microsoft] have done it open-source!
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
modified 6-Jul-23 19:34pm.
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Clearly you do not fully grasp the context. Maybe you just were not around when the widespread use of the WinForms designer saved a lot of UI design time and was copied by several MS competitors. And WinForms does not use hot reload. Never did. Hot reload was what MS settled on for Xamarin.Forms development when their IDE dev teams couldn't figure out how to make a UI designer. Do you get the concept that using a backhoe to dig a trench is better in both quality and reduced labor than a guy with a shovel? If so, then you should get that a UI designer saves time with the 95% to 100% of the UI coding, reducing the time it takes to create and debug it, allowing either more time on more useful work in validation, business rules, and data management, or gets the project done sooner.
"Hot reload" compared to step-through debugging that has been in the WinForms builder going back to VB6 and earlier is a joke. There is a XAML designer in Visual Studio, but it was never updated to handle the Xamarin.Forms dialect or the MAUI dialect.
Having an intelligent, well-written UI designer has nothing to do with where the code runs. As any 1st year software developer should know, if you can hand-write the code, you can generate the code.
Please name one HTML editor with drag-and-drop design functionality. I'd love to see one. So many developers who love hand coding the mundane, repeatable stuff becuase that is how they came up as "script kiddies", lacking a broader concept of SLDC costs.
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WinForms is not my thing, I only use it for articles. Xaml is far better. You are right, that 20+ yo tech still does not support hot reload, I stand corrected. The others do.
So I had a quick look at the latest Swift UI: What's New in SwiftUI - iOS 17 - WWDC 2023 - YouTube[^] ... I do this now with WPF, Avalon, ASP.Net, MAUI with hot reload... hot reload, like SwiftUI, is growing better with every release. Only difference being MS is cross plat, including iOS/MacOS. Here is the MAUI version: All things client and mobile app development with .NET MAUI - 37:11 Rapid Development with Visual Studio 2022 | BRK204 - YouTube[^] and a sample MAUI + Blazor Hybrid Case Study[^] in the same video. The power MS gives you!
MSBassSinger wrote: Please name one HTML editor with drag-and-drop design functionality.
You don't need me to tell you, Google search spits out tonnes of examples. However, here are three links to 7 examples:
1. Introducing Webflow - YouTube[^]
2. Top 5 Webflow Alternatives for Building Web Sites | No Code website builders - YouTube[^]
3. Pinegrow 7.3 Release with Upgraded AI Assistant and Tailwind Tree Inspector - YouTube[^]
UPDATE
Forgot to mention that MS .Net 8 is bringing support for allowing Obj-C & Swift to use .Net libs and custom libraries... π
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
modified 6-Jul-23 22:10pm.
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I know that when they designed Swift they could have just used the ECMA C# standardβ and saved a ton of money on language design by using a language designed by people who know how to design a language and that is 20 years mature. I have a tiny little iOS app written in Swift. Every time I have to update it to comply with the store. I have to edit some of the code because theyβre still working out the swift language.
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jlongo wrote: when they designed Swift they could have just used the ECMA C# standardβ and saved a ton of money on language design by using a language designed by people who know how to design a language and that is 20 years mature
As a C#-Forever developer I totally get what you are saying.
I know that Swift has to interact with the underlying NS (NextStep) classes / objects and I think they had to do a lot of work there so all the extra work probably became one of those, "well, let's just roll our own" kind of situations.
Also, (the most difficult thing about learning Swift) is the fact that there is so much declarative code (versus imperative-type coding that is done in other languages) and I think that is something the Swift creators were also trying to achieve -- but it makes the language like magic for me a lot and magic is hard to learn, because you just have to accept it that it does it.
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For the past week I've had Covid brain fog along with the other usual symptoms including diminished senses of taste and smell.
Anyway...
It tended to grate, when yesterday's Wordle solution wasn't crate.
I tried to orate and some thought I prate.
But I never got irate.
I'll show myself the door. 
modified 5-Jul-23 12:40pm.
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It took me about a month to get my taste back, and it still is not 100%.
I recommend taking Zinc supplements as I have learned that COVID can deplete and inhibit your ability to absorb zinc.
Zinc is a key component to smell. Smell being key to taste. It helps.
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I didn't get it either 
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Hear the inner dust (5)
"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." β Gerald Weinberg
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Earth ?
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Tomorrow all yours!
"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." β Gerald Weinberg
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Oi @KornfeldEliyahuPeter ! where's the CCC
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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5 minutes...
"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." β Gerald Weinberg
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Wordle 746 3/6
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Wordle 746 5/6
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Wordle 746 4/6
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Wordle 746 5/6
β¬β¬β¬β¬π¨
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Wordle 746 3/6*
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π©π©π©π©π©
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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β¬β¬β¬π¨π¨
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In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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