The Weird and The Wonderful

Ri Qen-Sin wrote:
I write good programs!

I believe you... because you didn't say, "I write programs good!" Big Grin | :-D

You don't say, "I write programs good!" You say, "I write programs well."

I've worked with some damn fine Indian developers ... although come to think about it they all learned the ropes with C++, Java and or C#. Perhaps it is VB Big Grin | :-D

I'm largely language agnostic  
     After a while they all bug me  

sulu wrote:
I have seen some excellent and well written VB Programs

Refuting this is not my point. If you take a skilled developer and tell them to write something in VB, they can apply their skills to a bad situation and usually pull an app out of the crapper.

My point is that VB was never a language that was targeted at SKILLED developers. VB is a language that is targeted at...say, an accountant that knows how to write Excel macros and wants to come up with something to impress their manager. ...That's all fine and cool; IF IT STAYS THERE!!! ...when those people teach themselves VB and then consider themselves a "programmer" and slide into IT to screw systems up that someone like me has to go in and fix, there is DEFINITELY a problem.

Like I said: "A skilled developer is a skilled developer is a skilled developer" ....taken further, "A skilled C++ developer is a skilled Java developer is a skilled VB developer" ...The language itself is irrelevant. You should be able to throw any language at a skilled developer and have them write proficiently....the architects at Microsoft tried their damnedest to break this fact when they formulated Visual Basic

sulu wrote:
The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it!

I nearly completely disagree with this stereotype. There is an undeniable presence of "brain dump certifications" that are handed out overseas, but I don't think that you can make the blanket statement that Indian, Russian, or Chinese developers are intrinsically less qualified, which I'm not sure you actually are saying...maybe you're just using heavy-handed statements

"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"

sulu wrote:
The UnEducated (Mostly Indian/Russian/Chinese) Developers will always write poor programs no matter what the language. VB just makes it eaiser for them to do it!

And what nationality is responsible for raising a person with such a biased , ignorant viewpoint ? Mad | :mad:

Ray Cassick wrote:
The language is syntacticly FINE. It is the idiots that USE it that you have problems with.

...please tell me that you're just saying that to be argumentative and that you don't actually believe that crap...VB syntax is absolutely disgusting

Ray Cassick wrote:
I have seen equally as dumb ass stuff written in C++, C#, Pascal, etc...

...Don't even get me started on C++ lol ...I *almost* hate C++ more than I hate VB. ...C++ is the bastard child that hangs out in the middle of nowhere that hybridizes the procedural mentality with object oriented design capabilities...when an unqualified programmer gets hold of ANY language, the results are laughable....when a *semi*qualified programmer gets hold of C++, O.....M......G. When you get someone that has a decent grasp of object oriented design, but they use a language that has a direct interface into memory as a staple of its core, you usually end up in the situation where an app starts out rock-solid up front: (Solid implementation of design patterns, the application is programmed to target interfaces; not implementations...etc) but when said "semi-qualified" programmer runs into a tough spot in their design...the approach is usually "Uh-oh...I don't know how to do that....what ****CAN**** I do. And C++ will allow them to take an otherwise well-structured body of work and stitch it together into a frankenstein monster that is more hideous than having to debug FORTRAN's GOTO structure

"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"

Alaric_ wrote:
...please tell me that you're just saying that to be argumentative and that you don't actually believe that crap...VB syntax is absolutely disgusting

Seconded. Verbosity for the sake of verbosity. An entire ethos developed around the idea that every concept needs at least 3 words summing 30 characters in length. Painful to write, painful to read.

Its like hungarian notation: a useful idea from the '70s painfully continued ad nauseum today.

I'm largely language agnostic  
     After a while they all bug me  

Ray Cassick wrote:
Why is your post not titled "I hate dumb ass VB programmers"?

Because if you think that's what I was saying, you either are incapable of(or you simply posted before)reading my follow-up to my original post.

I'll quote myself on this one:

Alaric_ wrote:
...btw, if you're a VB programmer and you think that I was insulting you or anything, then you misunderstood my intentions. ...My gripe is with the language and the reasoning behind the language....VB was designed to give "Non"programmers the ability to write quick, dirty desktop apps. I have a HUGE problem with VB being the language of choice in an enterprise setting, because most of the people that actually would say "Oh, I think we'll write this in VB. It does what we need to do" probably doesn't have the skill to make that decision. VB should never be used for anything other than "my app: I'm building it; I'm supporting it; It's running on my machine" Anything that is to actually be deployed to production should be written in a much more appropriate language because the GENERAL developer base for VB is absolute crap(a bunch of kiddie scripters that read a book and presto: qualified) ...and you end up with systems designed like the one that my snippets illustrate.

Again, not insulting ALL VB programmers(A qualified programmer is a qualified programmer is a qualified programmer) ...I write VB(mostly against my will, but what are you gonna do when the system was written in this horrible language and an enhancement comes your way?) ....Gripe about it.....every chance you get. GOD I HATE VB!!!!!

"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"

Ray Cassick wrote:
language is syntacticly FINE. It is the idiots that USE it that you have problems with.

I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.

"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon

Paul Conrad wrote:
I ditto that. The same code could have been done in any other language and looked just as bad.

I think I could make some reasonable disagreement with that. When I'm forced to use VB.NET, I think differently than when I'm using C#. The C# language can do things VB.NET can't; and while I do try hard to retain the clarity of work I do in C#, the language itself gets in the way.

It's like being a highly skilled acrobat trying to walk down a straight hallway when all of the strangely shaped objects on the floor keep moving, trying to trip you. VB is those moving objects. The language itself seems designed to prevent clarity of thought.

It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein

Patrick Sears wrote:
hard to retain the clarity of work I do in C#, the language itself gets in the way.

Can you give an example? Only problem I have is switching back to C# from VB.NET and forgetting ; sometimes.

"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon

Then i guess the problem is you, and not the language. Programming languages are just tools used to create what we imagine. If you lack skill and imagination you cannot write any sensible code with C# or C++.

I work with VB most of the time, but I can develop in C# or C++ easily without any problems.

Most people are decieved into thinking writing code that "looks" complex makes them skilled.

C++ code normally looks like the following, it mostly contains symbols and therefore makes it look like it belongs to a so called skilled programmer.

<br />
_ATL$Main<br />
{<br />
   //Shift 3 blocks to the left <br />
__ *HRESULT ^ pointer!:<br />
<br />
?0x000007-IXc<br />
 x++<br />
}

What the bloody hell are you talking about?

I'm not talking about writing complex code. You think VB is simple? Please. All the extra fluff simply obscures what the program does. You want to deride programs for "looking" complex to make the writer seem skilled, berate VB.

I have no problem in Matlab, C#, C++, or C. My problem is not a lack of imagination, you sanctimonious twit. VB, however, gives me hives because it is so verbose.

Believe it or not, there actually CAN be tools that are ineffective at making our mental constructs a reality. For instance, you wouldn't use a tire iron to build a fence. Maybe some people are really good at building fences with tire irons. Personally, I would find the tire iron to get in the way.

Now, if you replace "fence" with "program" and "tire iron" with "VB" you'll get what I'm saying. Maybe some people are good at writing programs in VB. For me, the language gets in the way. All tools are not equal, which is essentially what you're attempting to argue.

It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein

I think you are being a tad unfair to VB here.

The choice of language is mainly syntactical (I write and use both). The design of your system's architecture is nothing to do with VB per se, it's just bad design.

I do conceed that there are lots of bad/indifferent programmers in VB - but are there more because it's easier to learn VB than C# and so you get more beginners and self-taught coders in VB than other languages.

'Howard

I find it ironic that you are blasting VB, but in your messages on your profile you are using access. But in your defense that is some terrible code, where do you work and are they passing out salaries in the 200K range? I think I could move...

mr_lasseter wrote:
I find it ironic that you are blasting VB, but in your messages on your profile you are using access.

...upon reading this, I decided that I wouldn't justify that with an answer. But after thinking about it, I decided that I would justify answering it just long enough to tell you that I won't justify that with an answer.

"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"

mr_lasseter wrote:
using access

That is just about as bad.

"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon

I know some VB. Where can I find the 200k jobs? Smile | :)

Florin Crisan

Come to think of it; what is VB implemented in? VB? Any compiler worth its salt is written in the language that it compiles... (C# is the notable exception?)

Imagine if VB were open source and being maintained by VB programmers! OMG | :OMG:

Does this remind anyone of the chicken or the egg problem? Laugh | :laugh:

ROFLOLMFAO

Ri Qen-Sin wrote:
Does this remind anyone of the chicken or the egg problem?

Nope. There is bootstrapping[^]

Programming Blog

utf8-cpp

PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Come to think of it; what is VB implemented in? VB? Any compiler worth its salt is written in the language that it compiles... (C# is the notable exception?)

I remember that argument coming up in college between the C/Unix and the VB/Win crowds. The answer turned out to be that VB 4/5 was an advanced OS script while real programmers wrote ANSI C in VI Big Grin | :-D

I'm largely language agnostic  
     After a while they all bug me  

Sadly, it's not the retards writing the VB net compiler that want backwards compatibility. It's the retards using the old VB syntax that want it.

I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap, would have been tied to a post, blindfolded, and asked what it wanted on its Tombstone.

A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]

Dave Kreskowiak
Microsoft MVP
Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007

Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I for one, can't stand the old VB6 crap and the "shortcuts" and implicit conversions it does in the background. If it was up to me, "On Error Goto", and alot of other pre-VB.NET crap

"On Error Goto" was never a correct implementation of exception handling. I say that I hate "VB" because Visual Basic is the most popular incarnation of the BASIC language (in the current .NET flavor), but more accurately, I should have said that I despise BASIC

...does anyone that writes BASIC even know what it is??? It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. If you're a Beginner, writing BASIC is completely understandable. But you MUST realize that it is intended for use by non-programmers as a stepping stone to whatever language you go to after you are comfortable enough to step up

"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"

[quote]It stands for Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code.[/quote]

The popularity of BASIC in the 1980's stemmed not from human ease of use, but rather from the ability to make a very compact editor/interpreter package. Some simple versions of BASIC are 4K or less. Indeed, the Atari 2600 implementation of BASIC includes a CodeView-style display (showing current execution point and the values of all variables), and has to implement its own font display handling (the hardware has none), keypad scanning logic, and even a crude screen-saver, and yet it still fits within 4K.

Many of the horrible parts of vb6 syntax can be traced to Microsoft's original BASIC interpreter for the IBM PC more than 25 years ago. Using oddball invocation formats for graphics statements line line (x1,y1)-(x2,y2),color,bf is fine in an on-the-fly interpreted language, but is not a good approach in a compiled procedural or object-oriented language. Fortunately, the most horrible aspects of syntax were dropped in vb.net.